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Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Stu posted Mon, Sep 14 2009, 12:44pm  Sorry Jenkie, just noticed your post, which I've duplicated in News. But there's absolutely no evidence (in the fossil record or elsewhere) that such a bird existed 'til recent times in NA, as far as I know, intriguing as the notion is. I've posted on various 'big raptor' legends here before, from NA. Nothing really fits. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Jenkie posted Mon, Sep 14 2009, 9:40pm  lol, in other words, Thunderbirds are still just as valid as BF..... Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Cherokee posted Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:10am  Just as valid, yes. They'll never be as real as our Piasa bird. We have real evidence. seeee.... Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Rangoon posted Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:44am  FASCINATING. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Southlander posted Tue, Sep 15 2009, 12:15pm  Piasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Never heard of the Piasa bird so I googled it and came up with this wikipedia article (I know I know) but its a starting place to read other info about this bird. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Cherokee posted Tue, Sep 15 2009, 1:01pm  You've never heard of the Piasa bird? Wow. VERY cool story indeed, and it's only 30 minutes from me. I need to go take a pic with me under it, so you can see the size of the mural. I would be well under the feet, and I'm 5'3". Marquette was one of the first to speak of it. Even though it had been there forever. Native American braves would go on hunting parties down the river in canoes, and when they passed the mural, they would shoot arrows at it. If they missed, they turned around and went back. Supposedly bad hunting if they missed. here is another page on it with some different pics. The original pic has been changed so much. href="http://www2.ic.edu/cochran/ClassPages/205Spring03/Downs/TheLegendofthePiasa.html" target="_new">The Legend of the Piasa Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Cherokee posted Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:28pm  I guess it would help if I posted the link, yes? The legend of the Piasa Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: hroth posted Wed, Sep 16 2009, 1:58pm  How interesting! I think large birds are one of the least likely cryptids, but you gotta love local lore. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: MJLehde posted Wed, Sep 16 2009, 10:50pm  Alton is just around the river bend from me so I know the story well. That mural used to be further up the river at a spot where every year the boyscouts would repaint it by repelling down the cliff. One year sonmebody, who didn't even have a kid in scouting, brought a suit claiming that it was too dangerous and forced the scouts to stop repainting the mural. The city replaced it withb a giant a metal image that hung on the cliff in it's place, it looked about as authentic as that u-tube video where the bigfoot flips the camera the bird, and finally the mural was repainted where it is now. The original painting was at a place on the river that no longer exists. While I love the legend I've never thought it any sort of evidence that Thunderbirds were real. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Ursustyrannis posted Mon, Sep 28 2009, 2:10am  The Paisa may have been a bull shark. Very exaggerated but then again, for a people with virtually no natural predators, the bull shark might have spawned great legends. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: MJLehde posted Wed, Oct 7 2009, 6:16pm  I'll grant that Bull Sharks have been known to go up the river as far as Alton and that legends like tales grow in the telling, but even so the whole "flying thing" is hard to get away from if you're trying to make a shark the source of the story. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: LadyGreenEyes posted Sat, Sep 19 2009, 3:07am  You know, I have seen this before, but it occurred to me that the things on the head resemble the horns of a great horned owl. Anyone know of an owl similar that would have been much larger? Certainly, that could be a threat to people, depending on the temperament of the things. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Guodzilla posted Thu, Sep 17 2009, 8:39pm  Hey, Cherokee: Do you live in Illinois? I used to live in Bloomington. I have some peripheral distant relatives still living in Alton, and when I was a kid we'd occasionally drive down to visit and see the Piasa. The one on the cliff face now is it's ??th reincarnation, actually. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Cherokee posted Fri, Sep 18 2009, 9:45am  Yeah, I live in SW Illinois, about 30-40 minutes from Alton. I've been to Bloomington dozens of times, and I have family there. And unfortunately, your're right, this is like the umpteenth mural of the Piasa bird, and it changes each time, sadly. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Guodzilla posted Fri, Sep 18 2009, 9:59pm  Neato! Next time we have a family reunion in that area I'll try to go so I can give a shout-out and see if we can hook up (Don't mind Sue Ellen, my S/O. She's a skeptic on most everything crypto, but at least she tolerates my 'eccentricities' *wink*). Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Cherokee posted Sat, Sep 19 2009, 1:56pm  You got one of those too, huh? My SO just rolls his eyes when I start talking cryptids, and then he gets this weird little look on his face and I know he has 'zoned' out. lol Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Guodzilla posted Sat, Sep 19 2009, 4:09pm  Phaugh! Let'em. If it keeps 'em outta trouble whilst we "enlightened ones" talk shop, whatz the harm? ;-) Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Cherokee posted Sun, Sep 20 2009, 12:07pm  'Enlightened ones'...hmmmm....I like it. hehe Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Rangoon posted Tue, Sep 15 2009, 12:57pm  Well I suppose the bigfoot apologists would say they can hide in the deep woods from satelite's but why wouldn't thunderbirds show up on radar? Or satelite imagery? The thunderbird epi of monsterquest was one of the better one's imo prolly because it was one of the first. They put some good details into how weather/storm patterns could displace large raptors from other areas. They also go into graphic details about some that actually prey on monkeys and how they go about it. One particular famous incident at "Lawndale" involved a story about a kid being picked up by his tee shirt and carried a short way before being dropped. Very out of sync with the actual mechanics of a raptor strike which involves driving it's talons in deep to cause a massive wound, and hooking it's claws in to carry the victim off. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: EastTxSwamp posted Fri, Sep 18 2009, 10:11am  Just curious, what was his size in relation to moas? And did it get him off the ground? Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: LadyGreenEyes posted Sat, Sep 19 2009, 3:13am  Radar isn't generally aimed all over the place, so it's possible that they would not be seen. Also possible to have an unknown blip that is later ignored. To me, the thunderbirds are more likely than many cryptids, because there have been birds quite large and dangerous, and because of the huge turkey vulture I saw on the ground. My guess is that the known types can be far larger than accepted, and that there could be survivors of some of the ones thought to be extinct. If a large eagle from Africa could conceivably have been carried on air currents to the states, why not a surviving gigantic eagle from NZ? Not beyond possibility. Also possible that there were/are large birds native to this continent that are simply not known. If they could get that big, and we know they could, the only question is are they still around. With new species found all the time, i think it would be arrogant to dismiss the possibility. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Rangoon posted Sat, Sep 19 2009, 5:27am  The weather pattern is there to support an oops from west africa.monster quest did forensic weather data analisys which is how the Africa hypothesis was derived. It isn't from New Zealand. There may be an issue with a form of gigantism where certain individual birds grow larger than normal. Some common birds in my area are impressive when seen live an in color. I see turkey vultures,red tailed hawks,large owls quite frequently and bald eagles a couple times a year easily. All are within a normal size range no matter how impressive. The eagles give the biggest reaction when they first catch your eye because they are the largest and viewed with the least frequency. An untrained observer could easily become excited and over exaggerate the size of one. I think it's reasonable to say that various birds and living creatures are used in myths of natives but don't necessitate it being literal fact. It would seem reasonable that a large raptor could get driven ahead of an abnormal storm pattern and displaced to an unusual range where people saw it and interpreted it as being part of the storm and mythical. They may take such an event and try to explain it till the story becomes part of their universe. Estimating range to, and therefore size of, something flying and without reference point is extremely difficult if not impossible. It's a best guess kind of thing for most people and can't really be relied upon.Also remember that there are more birders out there than Cryptollieanythings. Birders are like there own little religous cults that network and descend on a point at the broadcast of a sighting. With new species found all the time, I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the possibility. The majority of new species are small and not giant birds with 30 foot wing spans. An oversized eagle or vulture maybe. It would seem like it's mainly a myth and good story telling but I can give it 1% that mebbe there is some truth in it but I doubt it. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: LadyGreenEyes posted Tue, Sep 29 2009, 12:45am  I can vouch for larger-than -usual known birds. I saw that turkey vulture on the ground, with wings partly spread and still hanging over both sides of the road. Had to be a good 15-ft, at least, far larger than "accepted" sizes. I do remember the wind currents stating that a bird could have come from Africa. Of course, it could have been larger than usual, too. That would make it more likely to get that far, I would think. Still, it could be something from right here at home, either larger than usual, or unknown and rare. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: mysticete posted Fri, Oct 2 2009, 9:52pm  first post in awhile, but let me just state that there has never ever been a single legitimate vagrant showing up in the US from West Africa. The closest would be Cattle Egret, which colonized South American and then expanded their range north. We have gotten vagrant birds of prey in the US, but they have all been from East Asia, Europe, and Mexico; none of these locations possess any raptors all that different in size from our own. I have stated it before of course, and I agree with you; if there was any mega bird of prey, birders would have reported it by now. They have identified and discovered rare vagrants such as Common Kestrel, Cuban Black Hawk, etc, so why and how could they miss a raptor with a 30ft wingspan. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Rangoon posted Mon, Oct 5 2009, 5:31am  Not to mention that there are legitimate migration routes for such birds as the broadhawk which migrates from the North east and North central US to the Andes. Birders set up all along the route which include pennsylvania and Texas.They are watching for birds much smaller than 30 feet and do it regularly in an organized way. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: hroth posted Wed, Sep 16 2009, 2:02pm  I must sound like a broken record.... (Kids, that refers to a 20th-century bit of technology, where a scratched LP would repeat the same thing over and over. I had a LP that was supposed to teach me Spanish in my sleep. The darned thing was scratched, and now all I can do is stutter in Spanish...) We were able to track condors here in N. America when they were reduced to only a few dozen. Why would a larger flying bird - probably diurnal, likely to show up at road kill sites - be able to hide a breeding population? Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Stu posted Wed, Sep 16 2009, 6:15pm  You're agreeing, I see. And you're right to :D Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: hroth posted Wed, Sep 16 2009, 10:31pm  Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. Whatever that means... Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: LadyGreenEyes posted Sat, Sep 19 2009, 3:15am  You should have put a penny on the needle. Maybe no one is really looking that hard? Or enough people aren't? Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: hroth posted Sun, Sep 20 2009, 8:50am  I can see where you'd have to look for nocturnal forest-dwellers. But big birds that fly at day and eat road kill should be obvious - and were, in the case of condors. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: LadyGreenEyes posted Tue, Sep 29 2009, 12:47am  No one has stated for certain that these birds would be scavengers. Besides, I did see a turkey vulture with a 15-ft wingspan, on the ground. Would give a lot to go back and take a picture, believe me! Didn't then because we didn't realize it wasn't supposed to be that big, and what teenage bird wants a pic of an ugly bird fighting over road kill? Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Ursustyrannis posted Fri, Oct 2 2009, 11:50pm  Well that's an interesting example of a transitional form within a species LGE. Perhaps there will be gigantic turkey vultures before long. People don't shoot them anymore since it's been conclusively proven they are practically exclusive carrion eaters. Like Condors, they might snap up bugs on a carcass or even play and eat with squash and pumpkins (weird). Both Condors and and Turkey vultures do not regard live vertebrates as prey usually. Both have been seen playing with mice at nesting sites with no harm to the mice. I can see sympatric evolution happening here, giant turkey vultures rip open tough hides to feed first while the normal sized animals wait until the giant is full. Eventually, the giants meet up and begin preferring each other as mates due to lack of sex/reproductive partner among normal sized congeniters. Trust me, animals, just like humans, overwhelmingly prefer typical over extreme exotic. Eventually, sexual bonding behavior would differ between the two groups and we'd be well on our way to a new subtype that may eventually diverge into a new species. Of course, depending on environmental circumstances, hybridization may still occur for generations. The nascent subtype of gigantic turkey vulture may well be an extreme that doesn't pan out well. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: LadyGreenEyes posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 3:11pm  Good analysis. My point is, if I saw such a vulture somewhere around 30 years back, there could easily be giant specimens of other known species that could account for a lot of the Thunderbird sightings. If they are rare (like the really large crocs such as Gustav are rare), then it's easy to imagine the experts missing seeing them. Even if one did, if the bird was flying, and too high for any point of reference to estimate size, they might not realize what they were seeing. That's one reason I lean towards believing such accounts. I won't rule out the possibility of some unknown large bird, either, though. New species are discovered, even in places no one would expect, so it's possible some sightings are something new, or thought to be extinct. The famous one that picked up the kid seems more likely, from the description, to be in that category. Subject: Re: New research lends credence to thunderbird accounts? From: Dreghorn posted Sun, Sep 27 2009, 1:41pm  So I take it you've studied Thunderbirds for years Stu? Apparently you have access to fossil records..hmm curious.

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