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Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: Scott M.... posted Tue, Jan 4 2005, 2:45pm 
I have done quite a bit of research on Alton's Piasa and actually am in the final stages of working on a small book on the subject, so I will work hard on keeping my points short and will try not to ramble...
1) There were two Piasa's originally
2) Marquette indicated there were two, but only described the first one apparently.
3) The animals were apparently different. The second one lasted until about 1867 when the cliff-face was dynamited. The first one was lost to a rock-fall in the late 1600's. If you look at photo 2 on my profile you will see the famous 19th Century painting made of the Piasa -- you can still see the head of the first Piasa on the left.
4) The first Piasa was most likely a Misshipezhu ("Water-Panther" -- could very well have been the Native American's name for the freshwater bullshark), while the latter existing Piasa was more likely a Thunderbird, (in legend, they were the mortal enemy of the Water-Panther).
5) Some of the Paints used to make the Piasa (which was a petroglyph and pictograph) were apparently Cobolt-based, and thus were moisture-sensitive (would appear in moist weather, but fade in dry weather).
6) It was suggested as early as 1920 that the Piasa was or Chinese origin. In the 17th Century, Marquette described the Piasa as being drawn with more detail than was capable by the finest artists of Paris at the time. It is doubtful that the Native Americans were capable of this level of artistry. Many Water-panthers (Misshipezhu) have been found along rivers and great lakes, but they are inevitablely simple and rough. It is very possible that early Chinese explorers of the Mississippi River in 1421 adopted the Piasa and repainted the first (Misshipezhu) one as a Dynasty Dragon, in effect creating a "flag" for China, claiming the land. This one unfortunately didn't last long.
7) The recreated Piasa of today is more like a "fantstical, delux edition" Piasa that was Patented and copyrighted in the late 1880's as a slogan for Pitt's Black Liniment (cure-all oil) and also used in a brand of canned fruit products made in Alton IL in the early 20th century (Piasa Brand Fruit)

Just a few notes....thanks
Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: mean_drunk posted Tue, Jan 4 2005, 10:31pm 
excellent research scott...I agree with you on point#6.First nations pictographs and petroglyphs were short on detail.I look forward to the book.
Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: H_Hominid posted Wed, Jan 5 2005, 1:43pm 
Not bad, but remember the Piasa bird is located in Piasa Ill., just north of Alton on the great river road.

I live in St. Louis, about fifty miles away from Alton.

On a side note, the weird people of Piasa do not pronounce it like everyone else in the world. One might think it would be Pee-ah-za,
but the local population pronounces Pie-ah-saw. Just incase you should ever find yourself on the river road, or in the farmers market buying apples and staring at the beast. You will not sound like an idiot.
Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: Scott M.... posted Wed, Jan 5 2005, 6:59pm 
I don't mean to be rude at all, but the Piasa ptroglyph is NOT in Piasa IL, it is just outside the city limits of Alton IL. Little Piasa IL is just a spot on the road and is actually a good 30 minutes from the actual Piasa. What Piasa DOES have though is a high school that has, as its mascot, the Piasa Birds. Now that is cool! Wish I would have went to high school there. On their football field they do have a giant metalic Piasa which actually was used on the cliff-face - in the 1970's - as the Piasa reproduction in Alton Il, 'til it fell. In the last few years, the shop class at the high school, recovered the rotting artifact and restored it. It looks great. But...the real Piasa is and always was in Alton IL. And...everything associated with Piasa -- the town, the creek, the petroglyph etc, has always been pronounced "Pie-a-saw"
Thanks!
Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: debraregypt posted Sun, Mar 6 2005, 9:21am 
Yes.... It is pronounced "Pie-a-saw".. I live about half an hour from Alton... I am 52 years old... and I remember the bird before it was blasted off to make way for the highway. It was hugh! Nothing like the small shop class small one.. but grateful they did that!.. Amazing how vivid this large one was and it didn't show signs of wearing off the color... wish I knew how they made that color stick!.. it was on a straight up and down cliff that jotted out more into the river than most of them. No slant on the cliff to make available for climbing to paint on.

Deb
Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: Gilgamesh posted Fri, Jan 14 2005, 2:18pm 
Interesting and well researched, but I've gotta disagree with one thing here:

> In the 17th Century, Marquette described the Piasa as being drawn
> with more detail than was capable by the finest artists of Paris at
> the time. It is doubtful that the Native Americans were capable of
> this level of artistry.

The Native Americans living along the Mississippi area were pretty cosmopolitan prior to the Spanish coming in. Since large cities allowed for job specializations like artists, it is reasonable to assume that some Native Americans could have developed such styles. In fact, we know that many Native American groups DID develop sophisticated art (ie the Mayans). We also know that trade routes extended down to Mexico (hence the adoption of so many Mexican traits along that area).

> Many Water-panthers (Misshipezhu) have been found along rivers and
> great lakes, but they are inevitablely simple and rough.

True, but just imagine how much we haven't seen. Quite frankly, I suspect that alot of the great art was lost thanks to de Soto and the Spanish. And, don't forget that Native American cultures can vary vastly from place to place. Prior to the Europeans, the area corresponding to the state of California had over 100 spoken languages in almost a dozen linguistic families (plus several isolates).
Subject: Re: Piasa monster vs. Chinese Dragon
From: Brenna posted Tue, Apr 19 2005, 10:00pm 
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you one some of your opinions. First of all, I'm currently doing active research on the Native Americans that created the piasa with one of the leading researchers in the field, so I know what I'm talking about, just so no one thinks I'm making anything up.

Alright, the piasa has been in Native American artwork for centuries, as of now the earliest image of the piasa comes from a period called Hopewell, which lasted from 150 BC to 600 AD. Not many images come from this period, the majority of the images come from a time period called the Mississippian (900-1600 AD). The people from the Mississippian period are precursors to modern day Native American tribes in the Southeast Mississippi river valley area. So here are my points about the piasa:

1. There are quite a bit more than simply 2 piasas, do some research into the Mississippian culture and you'll find hundreds of images of them on cups, bowls, gorgets, basically anything. In this culture the piasa is the god of the underworld, and he controls all the water in the world, hence the name underwater panther. He appears in different forms: The one on the cliffside in Alton is the underwater panther form, with legs and tail, and this is how he appears in the underworld. However, in the Mississippian cosmological model, the people believed that the piasa sometimes appeard in the sky, as a horned a winged serpent. They thought that at night the Underworld and the Above World switched places and the night sky was a visualization of the underworld, and Scorpio is the image of the piasa in serpent form.

2. The 'Water-Panther' name is not the Native American name for the freshwater bullshark. The Underwater Panther is not one animal, it's an amalgamation of more than one animal and therefore a supernatural monster. I won't go much more into this, as it deals politics of the Mississippian culture. The other piasa was probably not a Thunderer, since the Thunderers from this culture often appeared as birds and always as twins. They're the exact opposite of the piasa, sometimes mortal enemies, but most of the time simply opposite gods.

3. Finally, I disagree most with the opinion that the piasa might not have been created by Native Americans simply because they were not capable of such complexity. Some research into the artwork and crafts of these people proves this wrong, and as the researchers begin to understand more, they're finding a culture that is as complex, if not more complex, as the great cultures of Mexico (Aztecs, Maya). Do some research into the Mississippian culture, or the Moundbuilders as they're sometimes referred to as. Specifically these sites: Spiro (Oklahoma), Cahokia (Illinois), Etowah (Georgia), and Moundville (Alabama), with an emphasis on Moundville since most piasa images come from this site.

This is just some basic information about the piasa, the myth surrounding it is extremely complex and detailed. The Native Americans of the area were more than capable of creating this image, in fact compared to some of the things I've seen from this culture this cliffside piasa image is paltry. If you want to see some of these artifacts go to www.mississippian-artifacts.com and you can see just a small sample of them. I'd also be happy to share more if anyone wants more information. Just thought I'd throw this bit out there since I happen to be getting this little-known information firsthand.


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