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Subject: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: Goldstein posted Mon, Sep 6 2004, 8:58am 
I recently went to a falconry centre which had several very large raptor species including Bald and Golden Eagles, an African Bateleur Eagle, Turkey Vultures, Black Vultures and several different species of Old World vultures including Ruppell's and White-backed Griffon Vultures.

Observing the comparative size of the birds was very interesting (among other things, the Golden Eagle was just about the same size in body length/wingspan measurements as the Bald Eagle, but was a much more slimly built bird compared with the heavily built, almost dumpy Bald Eagles, which i would have guessed were 1 1/2 times to twice the weight, although this impression could have been given by the way the feathers were held).

One of the birds used in the flying display was the Ruppell's Griffon vulture (the largest vulture they had... he was called "Ripper"), which was about the same size in length/wingspan as the large eagles, although the bird trainer said that he weighed 14lb and the Bald Eagle only weighed 8lb. "Ripper" had a wingspan of at least 8 feet, and unlike the eagles held his wings straight out while flying, giving the impression of being even larger. He was MUCH larger than the Turkey Vultures, which had a wingspan of 6 feet max.

I just looked at a vulture website and found that Griffon Vultures (of which there are several species, all around the same size) are actually driven off kills by some even larger species, such as the Cinereous (or European Black Vulture) and Lappet-faced Vultures, which can have wingspans over 9ft, very close to a condor's 10ft.

The other thing about Old World vultures is that, unlike New World vultures (inculding condors) which have very weak feet, they have very large and powerful talons similar to those of eagles, which are their closest relatives genetically - cladistically, in fact, the fish eagle family (including the Bald Eagle) are actually Old World vultures, which happen to have feathered heads and be predators rather than scavengers. The Golden, Imperial etc eagles are closer to the Buteo hawks and kites, but all of them are within the hawk family, as opposed to New World vultures which are in a whole different order, closer to storks and herons.

Thus a large Old World vulture is as capable as a large eagle of picking up heavy prey, which is elevant to some of the Thunderbird reports. The largest species are capable of fighting off any mammalian predator smaller than a wolf from "their" kills.

IMO it's not outside the bounds of possibility that an OOP (escaped or even blown off course) Old World vulture could be responsible for some Thunderbird sightings - in behavioural terms it's a much better fit than a condor or turkey vulture. The Cinereous Vulture in particular is a good T-bird candidate in size and appearance. Thoughts?

http://www.vultures.homestead.com/OldWorld.html
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: eddi posted Mon, Sep 6 2004, 11:22am 
An important question here would be if Bird watchers across N. america have seen old world vultures, that would certanlly give some validity to your theory.
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: FalconStorm posted Mon, Sep 6 2004, 8:03pm 
Possibly. Goldstein, did they have any Stellar's Sea Eagles? I always wanted to see a Stellar's Sea Eagle. Supposed to be the most powerful raptor in the world.
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: Ego posted Tue, Sep 7 2004, 9:28am 
There's always room for size difference within species too, with individuals exceeding accepted size limits. From the brief description given the golden eagle didnt sound like an exceptionally large example, I have seen these adult birds range from big to huge.
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: Goldstein posted Tue, Sep 7 2004, 1:55pm 
No, they didn't have any Steller's. I've always wanted to see a Steller's too, but I don't think there any in the UK, or possibly even in captivity at all. Not sure if they are the most powerful raptor in the world, but wouldn't be surprised, although I would imagine that Harpy Eagles and Cinereous and Lappet-Faced Vultures come close.

The eagles they had were 3 Bald Eagles, one Golden Eagle, one Bateleur Eagle (which was IMO the most impressive-looking eagle there, it was somewhat smaller than the Balds and the Golden, but a very glossy black apart from its reddish beak and white bars across its wings - a very similar colour pattern to a Steller's, in fact, except not so much white and the yellow on a Steller's is replaced by red), and one Steppe Eagle, which resembled a smaller (by quite a bit, probably only the size of a Turkey Vulture) and paler-coloured Golden Eagle.

Of course, female raptors are considerably larger than males of the same species, so if the Golden Eagle was a male then a female would probably be bigger than the Bald Eagles that were there. But the Bald Eagles definitely looked like much more heavily built birds. The Golden was much slimmer and longer in the leg, built a bit more like a Harris Hawk...
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: (profile name not found) posted Wed, Sep 8 2004, 8:26pm 
No record, as far as I (and the AOU) know, of Old World vultures in North America. Have been authenticated sightings of Stellar's Sea Eagles and Harpy Eagles, though. Not sure, but I'm guessin' the Stellar's sightings came from Alaska and the Harpy's from Texas.
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: Mr. Myotis posted Wed, Sep 29 2004, 9:41pm 
See the post I made at the bottom of the "Thunderbirds- some reports that wont go away" thread below.
I guess I beat you to this theory.
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: (profile name not found) posted Wed, Sep 29 2004, 10:37pm 
Checked out your post. Bit confused, though. Beat me to what theory? My theory is that T-bird sightings are mostly misidentified turkey vultures and immature bald eagles.

But it's all fun. And it really would be cool if T-birds existed, implausible as that situation would seem.

McCall - wishin' he could see a T-bird, but thinkin' that ain't never gonna happen
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: Mr. Myotis posted Thu, Sep 30 2004, 9:15pm 
Sorry, I was talking to Goldstein.
I put it on your post because you were at the bottom.
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: (profile name not found) posted Fri, Oct 1 2004, 6:57am 
Ah. Now I get it.

McCall - easily confused in his old age (grin)
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: Ormus posted Mon, Oct 4 2004, 7:55am 
I think it is highly possible that Thunder Birds are surviving Teratorns

http://www.lam.mus.ca.us/journey/prehist/birds/teratornis.html

h
ttp://www.lairweb.org.nz/vulture/teratornis.html
Subject: Re: OOP Old World vultures as T-birds?
From: (profile name not found) posted Tue, Oct 5 2004, 9:10pm 
I don't, but I think it would be cool as heck if they were.


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