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Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: ben posted Wed, Jan 14 2009, 5:36am  If I saw a grizzly up here, then I might has well have seen a sasqautch! Either one is an awesome thing to see,and equally as rare in my state. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Wed, Jan 14 2009, 6:53am  I'm pointing out that bears sit just as you described and it hardly matters whether it was a brown or black bear. I think you saw a bear. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: ben posted Thu, Jan 15 2009, 9:27am  Not sure what I saw, keith. Ed told me it walked on two legs up the bluff and sat down.. I didnt see it walk on two legs because Ed saw it before I did, I just saw it sitting there. Who knows.... I should have made the suicidal hike in.... would have been a world record black, if that's what it was. Ed's reaction and description is what has me wondering... guess I'll never know.... plus the mountain we spotted it on is within the olympic national park boundaries... And Im not being hostile if I come across that way. I know it could have been a bear. Could have been somthing else to... if anything, it's a good story to tell around elk camp next year. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Thu, Jan 15 2009, 5:23pm  You're right Ben. You WON'T know unless you look for it and find it. (here's hoping!) Luck to ya. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Fri, Jan 16 2009, 5:24pm  Ben, interesting post & a good read. Allow me to comment on some points you make. We ended up going after the cougars. On our way up we saw our fair share of bears, most of them were a good 1000 yards away. You shoot cougar & bear? Why? Do you eat them? Surely they're no danger to people, being in such an out-of-the-way area. Am I the only one here to see the hunting side of your post as more than a little cruel? There is a very large bear that lives in the actual avalanche valley so we decided to scope it out for a couple of hours. If it is such a large bear, it's a mature & possibly of a good age. Why would you want to take out such a magnificent specimen? that's when the spotter comes in.... to see where the animal runs to and dies. So a kill isn't instantaneous? Isn't this causing cruel & unnecessary punishment on the animal? Call me a sappy, unrealistic lib if you will, but the shooting & killing of large predators in the wilds is repulsive to me. You seem to be going out your way to kill them, & if not for food or control purposes, why? As to your BF sighting, I've never seen a bear in the wild, but I've seen plenty of different ursine species in wildlife parks at home & abroad, & have seen them in varying postures, including the one you describe. And as you say - Bear are especially hard to see. Black blends in with just about anything out here. As to the legality of killing a BF, kill away. You can't kill what doesn't exist. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: McHaggis posted Fri, Jan 16 2009, 7:25pm  I have to agree with Stu here. I have no problem with hunting, when it comes to killing for food or for vermin control. After all, I have done both. But I do have a problem with killing for the sake of it. And hunting bear or cougar can only fall into this category. No wonder animals become extinct, with people like yourselves out there. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: ben posted Sun, Jan 18 2009, 11:15am  Sorry sir, but that is not what I do. I eat bear, and I eat cougar. Bear makes great sausage, and cougar is better than rabbit. FYI I NEVER buy meat from the store, all meat is taken straight from the land. Subject: Have to set this straight. From: ben posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 6:52am  You know, I tried to keep me head cool about this one, but I wont be called a ruthless monster that kills for the hell of it. I started a program this year where I take paralyzed hunters into the woods so they can experience somthing bright in their lives... Im a member of 3 conservation groups, and I work with the Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife. You've no right to call me a ruthless killer,or someone who contributes to animals going extinct. I am a conservationist and I help the animals and their habitat. Subject: Re: Have to set this straight. From: McHaggis posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 8:28pm  Ben, it seems you have missed the point I was making. "I have no problem with hunting, when it comes to killing for FOOD or for vermin control" The problem with hunting I have, is with trophy hunters. Not with people like yourself, who are hunting and using the meat as a supliment to their diet. Providing you are eating what you kill, and not hunting endangered animals, then I will always stand up for your rights to do so. Hunting in one way or another has been in my family for 500 odd years, as I come from a long line of famers and farm workers. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: ben posted Sun, Jan 18 2009, 11:27am  It is for food, Stu. Gross as it may sound, but bear and cougar are one of a kind meals, if you develop a taste for them. And sometimes no, a shot to an animal is not always an instant death, adrenaline causes them to run for a 50-100 yards. Im not a mean hearted guy either, I love to hunt...it's my hobby. I actually went duck hunting today and cooked the ducks over a fire and they were excellent. Please dont take me as a ruthless killer... Im not. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 12:08pm  Bear is darned good eating! We only have brown bears locally and they frequently carry trichinosis and so are not eaten, but I have friends on the mainland who occasionally give me black bear and it's hard to beat as table fare. I don't hunt predators because to me, they're thinking animals and it would be like shooting a dog or something. That's a personal choice and I certainly don't judge you for hunting them. Man is part of nature. Man is the apex predator. A wilderness where man does not take a percentage of the lesser predators is no longer a wilderness, it's a park. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 1:27pm  OK Ben, I apologise for my misinterpretation. I've just not heard of anyone killing cougar for food before. Are there enough to go round? What's it taste like? (Please don't say chicken.) Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 5:03pm  Stu, I tried to explain this to you before, and perhaps you just didn't want to understand? I'm not sure. I remember your response was "I could never live in a place like that, but visiting would be good". (or something to that effect) Canada and the US are HUGE places. Cougar are quite plentiful up in the Cascades and Rocky Mountains. They are not found so much the further east you travel and extremely rare east of the Mississippi. I also explained that yes, bear are plentiful in nearly every state and province. And yes, there ARE people that hunt to eat the meat and to use the fur. I had beautiful gauntlets, mukluks, and jackets made with buckskin and various animal furs. (As a matter of fact I wish I still had them!) People also use the fur, antler and bone (and porcupine quills) for beautiful art work that support not only the arts, but the artist's family as well. I was friends with a family that "lived off the land" and they rarely bought anything. It's amazing what you can make (and eat). They even taught me the secret to wild chestnuts and sugarplums (yum!) I've never eaten cougar, but I have eaten lynx and bear. To tell you the truth, lynx tastes like dark turkey meat. Bear is sort of a cross of beef and pork. A bit greasy tho. The picture is of an art project by my best friend's aunt. It's made with dyed bear and caribou hair and is hanging on the wall behind me. I had one years ago of a grouping of flowers with fish scales and bones. It was amazingly beautiful! If I can find one on the web that's similar, I'll post it. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 5:49pm  Good post, PJ! People who live in urban settings are often unable to grasp what life is like for those of us still connected to nature. I suppose that's understandable, if regrettable. Here, we gather berries and make jams, freeze and smoke fish when the salmon run and fill a chest freezer with deer I take in the fall. It's a part of life. Hell, it's the best part of life! Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 6:42pm  Thanks Keith: Well, some urban stuff is handy, like toilets that flush, hot showers, and toliet paper, telephones, the computer... But anyway, here's a pic of my daughter in one of my old jackets (NOT real fur!) It was made by a woman from Tadule Lake (northern Manitoba) and is one of the best made and warmest jackets I ever had. I'm pretty sure it's real deerskins tho. Might be caribou or moose? If I could still fit into it, I'd wear it myself. I dearly miss the "bush" life, but it was a lot of hard work too! I DON'T miss skinning rabbit, filleting fish, or sitting in the cold waiting for a deer to walk by, but I certainly miss eating them! What I wouldn't do to go out and split wood and haul water with my dad just one more time *sigh* Forgive her for looking peeved, she just woke up and it's exam day. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 3:36am  I'm too old and wussy to live completely in the bush without flush toilets and the like. Still, I enjoy being connected enough to harvest part of my needs from nature. Nice jacket and daughter! Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 7:04am  Yeah that jacket still smells like smoke too LOL. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 5:44am  Just beside Lizzie's right arm? Yep. Grandpa's, right? Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 7:02am  Yes it was my dad's. She can play it a little, but not well LOL. Sad thing is, that chanter has elephant ivory. It was made a long time ago, when the hunting for ivory was allowed. See the hidden message there? Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 1:21pm  I saw it before you pointed it out. So what? Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 1:29pm  Nervermind then, that one flew over... Enjoy your day. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 1:43pm  I will. Plenty good stuff going on today. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 7:01pm  Actually PJ, you didn't say about cougar & didn't know if they were eaten. You only mentioned bear. As for "I could never live in a place like that, but visiting would be good", I was talking about North America in general, & it had absolutely nothing to do with hunting or trapping (having trapped, it'd be a bizarre thing for me to say). As you know, I really hope to do some extensive travelling in NA one day soon. Until moving to the city 10 years ago, I lived mainly in rural areas of Scotland, & I can assure you I'm more at home in the country than in the urban sprawl. Needs must & circumstance prevails. Generalistic assumptions such as the one in the post following your own, without knowing individual circumstance, reveal a less pleasant rural trait sometimes arising - interfering crap-stirring. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 7:22pm  You're right, I didn't mention cougar because I haven't eaten one, but I told you about the lynx, and the family I knew that refused to buy any meat because it was available right out the back door. They also took advantage of wild berries, fruits and nuts, and other various edible plants. Oh I'm drooling thinking about fresh fiddle heads! I also explained that sometimes, it's all some people have. Forgive me if I mixed up the not living there thing. Same convo, differnt time I suppose? I just remembered talking about North America. Didn't mean to mis-quote or use it out of context. My mistake. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 11:21pm  No probs. You unintentionally started a mini-bandwagon which, I note, the following poster was only to happy to jump on. I don't remember you mentioning lynx, or when you did, maybe I thought you were talking about sausages! Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 11:36pm  Perhaps, but I did mention it. *shrug* Goes to show you that no one has a perfect memory. As for starting a bandwagon: I hope others climb on board. Not all people that hunt do it because they are sadistic and kill for fun. Nice to see that you apologized for your misunderstanding. If you ever get out this way, I'll see if I can get my hands on a bear roast. Maybe some moose meat? Since I've moved here 10 years ago, I haven't met too many hunters. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Mon, Jan 19 2009, 11:46pm  You know me - I eat just about anything that roams the land & I've caught a fair few of them myself back in the day. The bandwagon I mentioned wasn't about hunting but yet another opportunity (not from you) to slide sly & false implications about myself into a thread. I'll live. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 3:51am  Generalistic assumptions such as the one in the post following your own, without knowing individual circumstance, reveal a less pleasant rural trait sometimes arising - interfering crap-stirring. Now, why is that necessary? You did apologize to Ben, explaining that you didn't understand the circumstances (that even prey animals can be eaten), thereby by proving my somewhat gentle remarks on the subject. I wasn't trying to insult you or McHaggis, I was merely pointing out that inexperience leads to misunderstanding. It's understandable that someone with your background would reach the assumption you did and it's to your credit that when the error was pointed out, you apologized and moved on. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 3:58am  My background? I'm a country boy, kiddo, but just not an American country boy. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 4:16am  So, you hunted bears and mountain lions? I think not. You don't have the same background as Ben and that led to the erroneous assumptions you made. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 4:18am  As I said, just not an American country boy. Of course I've not hunted bear & cat. What a silly thing to say! But I bagged more than my fair share of hare. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 4:21am  I thought hare was jugged rather than bagged? Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 5:43am  Humour, I assume.....Don't like it jugged, like it cooked quick, fresh & with only a pinch of salt & pepper added. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 6:08am  Try rolling them in Italian bread crumbs and frying in low to medium temps in olive oil, until tender. Hard to beat! Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 6:11am  No thanks. I prefer them as is. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 6:15am  Raw and unskinned? Suit yourself. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 6:21am  I don't like much diluting of the tastes of meats. Prefer the natural flavours with just a touch of seasoning. Although I'm partial to thin-sliced liver coated in oatmeal & flash-fried in olive-oil & garlic when in Spain. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 7:41am  I much prefer stewed. Much more tender that way. But my second choice would be baked, a tiny bit of real butter (rabbits have very little fat) and salt and pepper. MMM Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 1:19pm  I wasn't talking about conejos, I was talking about hare, but hey-ho. I stew rabbit in cider while in Spain, stuffed with apricot, over a few hours in the pressure cooker. Everyone likes it. At home, I quick-fry hare. Best taste. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: /PJ posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 1:30pm  Yep sure ok whatever. Rabbit...hare similar not the same...I get it, moveing on. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 1:48pm  I think my reply was to Keith, but feel free to chip in with recipes. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: McHaggis posted Tue, Jan 20 2009, 8:39pm  Keith, like Stu, I'm a country boy. I am certainly not inexperienced when it comes to hunting. I have fished and shot and I've set traps and snares in my time. All either as vermin control, or for food. And that is my point. The only hunting I am against is trophy hunting. ps. I have eaten many things in my time, including bear. Although I've never eaten cougar, I did eat cat in Singapore. I will always try something once. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Wed, Jan 21 2009, 2:25am  I've never eaten cougar either, though like you I'd try it if offered. I ate dog once in Korea, from a street stand. My companions who had suggested it, didn't tell me it was dog until afterwards. They found that much more amusing than I did. It was fatty like pork, but since it was BBQ'd Korean style, I couldn't tell you how it really tasted. Some years ago I was deer hunting with a friend who asked me to take any foxes I saw because he wanted the pelts. Well, a fox crossed my path and I pulled out a little .22 pistol, and as he walked past aimed for his neck and let fly. I managed to shoot him right through the top of the shoulders and he just lay there paralyzed from the neck down, looking at me with curiosity and fear. It was a bad few minutes and it made me feel physically ill as I went about trying to kill this animal without damaging the pelt, while he watched me the whole time. He was making the same sort of "begging" sounds and facial gestures that a dog makes. I've never been tempted to shoot a "thinking" animal again. Canines and cats and bears are absolutely safe from me. Yet, man is part of nature. He (not me obviously, but in the general sense) is the apex predator who has always taken other large predators for fur and to remove competition. If man doesn't take a percentage of large predators then a key element of the natural world is missing. Without man, the natural world is out of balance. We all need to look at the picture bigger and be a bit more tolerant, methinks. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: McHaggis posted Wed, Jan 21 2009, 7:28pm  I've got to disagree with you there Keith. Without man, I think the natural world will find a balance quite easily and quite quickly. We think we are more important to the earth than we actually are. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Thu, Jan 22 2009, 3:06am  There are a number of long-term studies done on the relationship between wolves and moose over the years on Isle Royale in Michigan. Isle Royale is a very large uninhabited island park where no hunting is allowed. What they've seen is a cycle rather than a balance. Wolves kill and eat the moose (and often don't eat them) until the numbers drop below sustainable levels, wherein the wolves begin to starve and are swept by disease. The moose then rebound until the habitat will no longer sustain them, and then they begin to starve and become diseased. The wolves eventually make a come-back, kill the weakened moose off until the numbers drop and the wolves begin to starve again, and are again swept away by disease. This cycle has been watched and studied for over 60 years now. On the mainland (where hunting is allowed), this doesn't happen because man (the apex predator) kills a percentage of both wolves and moose to maintain a rough balance. Both wolf and moose populations remain healthy and in numbers that the habitat can sustain. Man is a part of nature and without him there is no balance. As populations grow, of course hunting as to be carefully regulated. There's always room for improvement in that process, but the principle is sound. I think (and please don't be offended!), that the notion that man isn't part of nature is a modern fallacy brought about by living divorced from nature. That's quite natural and understandable because very few people depend in any way on natures bounty any more. Yet, even though we don't need nature any more, it still needs us to play our traditional biological role! Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: McHaggis posted Thu, Jan 22 2009, 8:38pm  I'm not offended, but I never said Man isn't part of nature, I just said that if man disappeared over night the rest of the earths inhabitants would carry on regardless. As for the difference between cycles and balances you descibe, you miss the point. Man isn't creating a balance, but just artificially lengthening the time of each cycle. Balance is something created by man. Since the world began, life has existed in cycles, it's only now that we are obsessed with finding this mythical balance, and using it as an excuse for our actions. Eventually like the moose and wolf populations we too will overpopulate the world, and we will find checks and balances will occur naturally to reduce us. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Fri, Jan 23 2009, 1:23am  Balance is something created by man. Balance is created by the apex predator, which happens to be man. Man isn't interfering in the cycle, he's part of the cycle. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Fri, Jan 23 2009, 4:39am  Balance is created by the apex predator, which happens to be man Is there an echo in here? That's just what he said. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Fri, Jan 23 2009, 4:46am  The point, and I don't think it's a particularly subtle one, is that if we value a healthy environment then man needs to play his historic role. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: Stu posted Fri, Jan 23 2009, 4:50am  His 'historic' role has grown & changed out of all proportion in the past couple of centuries. Subject: Re: I hope you really did see one Ben. From: KodiakKeith posted Fri, Jan 23 2009, 4:53am  Which is why it must be regulated so that our remaining natural areas remain healthy.

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