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Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: cake-taker posted Fri, May 18 2007, 10:23am 
I noticed the link isn't working. Here's the text of the Lancashire Evening Post article:


"Does Lancashire have a lake monster?

Nessie seems to have many cousins around the world

Lancashire may have its own lake monster lurking in the deep.

RSPB Martin Mere, near Ormskirk, may look like a haven of tranquillity with its calm waters and scenery.

But reports of a larger-than-life creature living in the 17-acre lake were voiced five years ago.

Several reports from the public suggested a blood thirsty monster was circling beneath the still water, ready to pounce on unsuspecting wildlife.

A team from the Centre for Fortean Zoology (CFZ) concluded it was a Wels catfish which may have been introduced to the area in the 1870s.

However, if the fish exists, it is, according to CFZ director Jonathan Downes, a British record as it is believed to be 8ft long and 24 stone.
Today, he said: "It is still one of the strangest things I have ever seen in England.

"We are convinced it was a catfish but it was still incredibly weird.
"It was an absolutely enormous creature."

Jonathan's team of experts, who in the past have hunted vampires in Mexico, spent days probing the depths of the water using infra-red cameras, military-style night lights and sonar equipment to solve the mystery.

The creature was seen snaking beneath the surface of the water by a qualified cryptozoologist, who claimed the fish had no scales, appeared rubbery and was oily black.

Several members of public reported the giant black, shiny creature had attacked fully grown swans, creeping up below the surface of the water then grabbing swans and dragging them under.

The "Martin Mere monster" has since become a talking point among residents near the 380-acre reserve ever since.

A warden at Martin Mere told the Evening Post that since the CFZ investigation the creature has mysteriously kept quiet with no further sightings.

He said: "I live very close to the mere and nothing has been seen since, as far as we know. It's quite strange really – maybe the team scared it off!""
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: de_hart posted Fri, May 18 2007, 10:46am 
What does "Ormskirk" mean exactly?
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Dick Raynor posted Fri, May 18 2007, 1:50pm 
Etymologically speaking, "the kirk of the orm, or orms".
The Orm's Head, in Wales, is likewise where the Orms go for a pint and a game of darts on Friday nights.

Hope this helps - Dick.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Aziraphale posted Fri, May 18 2007, 10:03pm 
"Orm" is Old Norse for snake, worm or dragon. Kirk is of course church. So Ormskirk could (if you are feeling romantic) be Dragon's Church.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: hojoo posted Fri, May 18 2007, 1:00pm 
What does 'qualified cryptozoologist' mean exactly?
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Dick Raynor posted Fri, May 18 2007, 3:54pm 
One who has not yet been dis-qualified.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Guodzilla posted Fri, May 18 2007, 6:17pm 
I need some help here. How much weight is a "stone?" I've heard it used by many Brits, but I've never found out what it is.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Karl posted Fri, May 18 2007, 7:03pm 
A stone equals 14 pounds.

"One who has not yet been dis-qualified." :::snarf:::

That just gave me a wonderfully wicked idea, but I don't know if I dare use it.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Lys posted Fri, May 18 2007, 8:24pm 
arghhh noooo sea monster
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Dick Raynor posted Fri, May 18 2007, 9:16pm 
Interesting question, like "why are there no 10 foot high mice, or 5 inch long elephants?" Discuss :-)
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Lys posted Fri, May 18 2007, 10:13pm 
Cause more people are scared of mice than there are elephants?
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: de_hart posted Fri, May 18 2007, 11:15pm 
Does the name mean that there has been history of "orms"/dragons there in that particular place prior to the introduction of wels?
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Aziraphale posted Sat, May 19 2007, 1:12am 
The lake is about 7 miles from Ormskirk, a long distance in the times when the town would have been named, so there probably no connection.

This site says the town was founded in 840 AD. Disappointingly, though, it also says that Orme was the name of the founder. But it could be wrong...
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Rainbow Medicine Man posted Fri, May 18 2007, 11:22pm 
Because mice are scared of eigth and die of fright after reaching two inches - because elephants love the fresh air of altitudes (incidentally, that's the reason of the trunks, to reach even higher) - because mice poduce a space vortex and go into another dimension when it grows strong enough (that is, when they get bigger than two inches) - because that way elephants don't have to jump very high to slap the stretlights when passing - because...

BTW, Dick, the Tiumph went to the six hours endurance race at Valencia and had to abandon because...the cranckcase developped an oil leak that sprayed the rear tire...
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Greg Solstice posted Sat, May 19 2007, 12:54am 
Wow, that made no sense but somehow touched me.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Lys posted Sat, May 19 2007, 2:24am 
... what! lol
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Dick Raynor posted Sat, May 19 2007, 3:58am 
Hi Greg,
Perhaps you missed the original thread "New sea monster footage" back on April 5th 2007? If it still makes no sense, kindly remain touched :-)

Cheers, Dick.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Greg Solstice posted Sat, May 19 2007, 9:43am 
I'll see to that, don't you worry.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Greg Solstice posted Sat, May 19 2007, 9:55am 
That was the most ridiculous, nastiest, foulest thread I had ever seen. The discussion went comptletly off the wall in a bad way.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: cake-taker posted Sat, May 19 2007, 2:49am 
"What does 'qualified cryptozoologist' mean exactly?"

In the UK at least, local newpapers can be very credulous when it comes to anyone who is posited as an 'expert'. The phrase 'qualified cryptozoologist' brings to mind some sort of ghostbuster/van helsing figure who mysteriously arrives at the site of the phenomena with a bag of tricks for capturing the ghost/monster etc!
As far as I know, there's no university program in the world which will turn you into a qualified cryptozoologist*. But someone with degree level training in zoology or biology who then chooses to bring their expertise to bare on the question of cryptids is perfectly entitled to call themself a 'cryptozoologist' I don't know if Jonathan Downes fulfills these criteria or not. When I've seen him on television he seems to know his stuff. Does anyone remember his 'To The Ends Of The Earth.' documentary on Chupacabras? (might not have been shown in the States).
It's worth remembering that when someone becomes an qualified expert in, say, insectivores, the group of animals that they study is united by both genetic relationship and variously held degrees of similarity in morpology, lifestyle etc. This is what makes it a meaningful area of study. Two cryptids such as Bigfoot and Mokele-Mbembe have nothing in common except that they're both hidden. For this very reason, it's impossible to build a branch of science out of the body of knowledge surrounding cryptids. But this does not, and should not, dampen the passion we all have, scientist and armchair amateur alike, for these mysterious creatures. I'm strictly in the armchair, by the way, having next to no scientific knowledge.
Being new here, I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. The above is just my two cents worth in the debate over what it means to be a cryptozoologist.


* I could be wrong about this; maybe scmarlowe can correct me.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: carter_farms_a_fairy_tale_IMO posted Sat, May 19 2007, 7:55am 
Is the supposed wels believed to be a 130+ year old fish from the original stocking in the 1870's ?
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: carter_farms_a_fairy_tale_IMO posted Sat, May 19 2007, 7:56am 
Or do they naturally reproduce in small bodies of non moving water ?
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Dick Raynor posted Sat, May 19 2007, 1:57pm 
Is the supposed wels believed to be a 130+ year old fish from the original stocking in the 1870's ?... Or do they naturally reproduce in small bodies of non moving water ?
The Wels catfish can grow quite quickly, if enough food is available. I am told they require a summer water temperature of around 20 C to stimulate spawning, but can survive freezing winters. This explains how they survive in the River Danube and some lakes in Sweden. I was discussing this with Roy Mackal a few years ago and he was of the opinion that fish are essentially immortal, and will continue to live until something kills them. Wels can move overland like eels do, and I have a feeling that they may have contributed to some British "dragon" myths e.g. the Lambton Worm.
Their introduction to Britain in Victorian times is an interesting story in it own right - they were to be the food source of the masses in the newly emerging industrial society, and attempts were made to start farming them. Similar attempts with turkeys proved more successful.
I have no opinion on the supposed specimen in Martin Mere, and how someone guesses it's weight at 24 stone rather baffles me, unless they found some discarded 48" waist trousers in the shallows.

Cheers, Dick.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Sordes posted Sat, May 19 2007, 4:52pm 
Well, in fact wels catfish can not move over land. There are some african species which can do this, but not wels catfish. There is not one kown case of such a behavior. But they can survive also in water with very little oxygen.
I see really no reason why this animals should be virtually immortal. Sorry, but thatīs BS. This fish can life for several decades, probably over a half century, but there is no indication or proof that they could life for more than 100 years.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Dick Raynor posted Sat, May 19 2007, 6:39pm 
Hi Mr Sordes,
I will try to find my references and get back to you :-)
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: de_hart posted Sun, May 20 2007, 1:19pm 
Although I've never heard of them traveling overland, and I would think that large adults would weigh too much to make it likely, they are shaped much like Asian walking catfish. I would think it much more likely with juvenile specimens. Fish are like amphibians and reptiles in that they continue to grow as they age and don't exactly have an internal clock to know when to die, or mechanical senescence as with elephants. There is a point at which the brain is not entirely keeping up with body function, however, due to the fact that cerebral tissue is replaced at a slower rate than bodily growth (meaning there's pretty much a maximum size and age). I think it entirely likely that one could live to be well over 100 years old, but also that it's unlikely to survive environmental conditions, predators, etc., for that length of time. It would definitely be exceptional.
Subject: Re: Monster fish terrorizes English lake
From: Sordes posted Mon, May 21 2007, 10:47pm 
I have really much literature about wels catfish, and have read dozens of articles about them in fishing-magazines, furthermore there are well-known here, but there is not one indication that only one wels ever tried to walk on land. They can survive in water with not more than 3,5mg oxygen per litre water, but not breath air.
It is also a myth that reptiles, fish and amphibians grow for their whole life. In fact really most of them have a terminated growth, and after a distinct age most members of the species have abou the same size (similar to mammals or birds). Some of them do indeed grow for a very long time, but thatīs not necessarily the key to grow huge. Most extraordinairy big animals lived under the same circumstances as other members of their kind, but due to a very good genetical heritage, they grew much larger. Just look at the giant crocodile yai, which is about 6m long. Among ten thousands of crocs, including many other hybrids, only yai grew to monster-size. Examinations of pikes showed that the record-fish are most often not very old at all, and that older pikes tends to loose weight. Fish do age too. Deepwater fish which live in very cold water can life for decades or even more than a century, but in warmer water, things are a bit different. The age of 100 years was always somewhat magical for humans, and many animals were just thought to live for a whole century, without having any information about them. I have a great scientific book about the biology of wels catfish, including growth rates and age determination. If you look at the actual facts, and not only tell-tales, things tend to look different.


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