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Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Wed, Jul 11 2007, 11:37am  May I also point out that the fossil evidence, paricularly in coastal areas of the Eastern United States were corrupted by the impact of an asteroid that broke up entering Earth's atmosphere about 35,000,000 years ago? The impacts of the fragments in North America occured at the mouth of Chesapeake Bay, in North Carolina and in Florida (which is why the Eocene formation layers are missing there). Then there is the comet that apparently exploded over the continent 13,000 years ago that many earth scientists are now saying wiped out the Clovis Culture. The lack of evidence of dispursal is explanable with tetonic and celestial events. So, the lack of evidence in support of my concept isn't also evidence that it didn't happen. Moreover, there is a parallel that occured on the Australian continent where an ape species apparently evolved independent of the heliocentric Out of Africa theory. "Mungo Man" does not have genetic links (according to the DNA research) to the genetic Eve from whom modern humans eminated. So, I can't throw out the possibility of convergency either. It's far too soon to conclude that there aren't more revealing fossil finds to be made in North America, nor that a living specimen will be discovered that would bear out my thoughts on this subject. Of course, the information is meger, consequently the "hypothesis" is very much subject to change as new information is obtained and verified. But, to be valid AND reliable, any hypothesis must explain ALL apparent deviations from the predictions derived from it. So, it's easier to presume that the Swamp Ape doesn't exist to make the problem go away. However, if that's true, what is it that intelligent and credible people are actually seeing in their encounters over a considerable time span. You may recall in your reading that this same problem existed with the Mountain Gorilla and the so-called Bili Ape. Both were later confirmed as being real. Dr. Goodall bases her belief that there is something to the Bigfoot legends largely due to this history. I have to agree with her and while the ideas I've expressed may not be the mechanism by which they developed, it is at least a possibility which takes into account the evident material -- including neolithic images of what appear to be Bipedal Hairy Ape creatures in Native American lore and petrographic art in North America. Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: mysticete posted Wed, Jul 11 2007, 10:50pm  Neither of these impacts should affect the Miocene and Pliocene fossil record (which is again, pretty good in Florida) The first one is two old (Apes didn't exist as far as we know in the Eocene, though very basal anthropoids probably did). And I have no idea how the 13000 year old comet would affect fossil preservation. This to me seems to be handwaving. A comet or asteroid strike should really only affect the areas of immediate impact (unless your suggesting it was big enough to affect global climate, leading to greater degrees of erosion, but I don't think that is supported in either case. Again, this is a poor explanation for why we are not finding Miocene and Pliocene Dropithecines, especially when we have pretty good material from the old world. Also, you appear to be confused on the Mungo Man issue. He is not an example of convergent evolution, and no researcher has said that he isn't homo (and few have suggested he is not sapiens. The controversy over his DNA is that he may provide evidence for a multi-regional model of human evolution, instead of the out of africa hypothesis. He certainly didn't come from non hominid stock. At this point, I think any attempts at looking at what species a NAPE is are foolhardy. Prove it's a real animal first, then worry about it's taxonomic identity Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 1:18am  As far as the celestial events are concerned, I'm pointing out disruption of the fossil layer. While your observation would otherwise be correct, you are not accounting for the difference in coastline due to advancing and receding sea levels at the times of impact. During the Eocene much of Florida as inundated except for "the ridge" up to the area around Gainesville about 150 feet above today's sea level. During the Pleistocene the shoreline extended into the Gulf and Atlantic a considerable distance from today's coastline to about 300 feet below todays sea level. This factor was also extended up the Atlantic Coast and around the Gulf of Mexico. The earliest protoprimates trace back to about 65,000,000 years ago and survived the K-T extinction here and elsewhere. So, my point is that the fossils you're suggesting should be among those known are not likely to come from current terrestrial fossil beds -- since we're looking for semi-aquatic ape species that had habitat in coastal marshlands of the then exposed terra. I suspect that oil drilling activities in the Gulf today are likely to provide some evidence of primate activity eventually during the subject time period. Granted, I may be putting the "cart before the horse" taxonomically but extrapolating some POSSIBLE form and behavior of the animal from paleontological research MAY give us some idea where and how to find the living creature and what to expect should cryptozoology be able to locate a living specimen. In the arena of physical evidence in this age of DNA, these speculations may also give us some clues and benchmarks. With Mungo Man, the Multi-Regional model is appreciated -- I am aware of the confusion in existing physical anthropology regarding H. erectus and H. ergaster. Clearly, Mungo would likely have some roots in earlier species that migrated globally much earlier than originally thought -- which speaks exactly to my point. Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 1:22am  May I suggest that you take a look at a book written by one of my Pangea Colleagues "Centozoic Seas" (Dr. Ed Petuch) 2006/2007? His illustrations regarding the sea levels, coastline, and celestial events are quite good regarding this issue. Ed is both an expert in geology and marine paleontology as well as several other related subjects holding a number of degrees in Earth Science fields. Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: mysticete posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 7:03am  I am home at the moment, so I don't have access too all the school's journal searches, but a quick google search gave me this Pleistocene Swamp Deposits It's not exactly recent (1909) but does that that Pleistocene deposits are common on the southeastern coastal plain, though the paper seems more concerned with botany then vertebrate paleontology. I can also think of several other reasons to doubt that the lack of apes is a preservational bias. First off, you would have to assume that the apes quickly dispersed there and remained endemic to that small narrow region alone. This seems odd, as a variety of marsh or wetland critters did pretty well for themselves during Pleistocene, animals like Capybaras, which we have a pretty good record of in North America Again, I don't understand why you bring up a point of mentioning Paleocene and Eocene primates in North America. There has never been any evidence to suggest the existence or origins of higher primates in North America. Even if your Dryopithecines dispersed here, they almost certainly don't represent a continuation of the NA primates. on a side tangent, it looks like primates DIDN'T survive the KT event, as the newest study indicates that not only is the putative Late Cretaceous primate Purgatorius not a primate, but it isn't even a placental. The paper is cited below Wible, J.R., G.W. Rougier, M.J. Novacek & R.J. Asher. 2007. Cretaceous eutherians and Laurasian origin for placental mammals near the K/T boundary. Nature 447:1003-1006. Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 7:16am  Interesting, looks like there's some contradiction between source material. Thanks for the citation. I'll look into this farther. However, much has changed since 1909 and there have been recent fossil finds (albeit non-primate) eminating from recent drilling on the Gulf Shelf. It may not impact the primate issue in so far as Dryopithecus and descendents are concerned (if they weren't here), but some current thinking is that the celestial event of 13,000 years ago greatly impacted the Clovis people and was responsible for the mega-fauna extinctions at that time in North America. Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: Stu posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 8:17pm  "some current thinking is that the celestial event of 13,000 years ago greatly impacted the Clovis people and was responsible for the mega-fauna extinctions at that time in North America" Can you cite that 'current thinking', Scott? I'd be interested to see it. Thanks. Stu (sorry to butt in but immensely enjoying the craic here) Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 9:32pm  I'm not aware of any books on the subject yet, but try these: http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/NSD-mammoth-extinction.htm l http://www.livescience.com/animals/070521_comet_climate.html http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/530208/ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070523094009.htm Thesearticles from credible sources are but a few on the subject. I became interested in these phenomena after talking with Dr. Petuch at length about the one he details in his book "Centozoic Seas". As you know, mammoth extinctions were previously thought to be the result of human over-killing the animals. However, we discovered the partial fossil remains of a mammoth in Bradenton, Florida that was pulverized (I have the fossils in boxes here in my office and in our storage unit). The body could have been washed to the then coastline and damaged by wave action, but it may also have been reduced to pieces by more catastrophic after-effects of a celestial event. The jury is still out on that one (the fossils date to around 13,000 years ago -- it's a Columbian mammoth). Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 9:38pm  And, I guess I better mention, for the nit-pickers benefit, the mammoth remains were found in a "bone yard" containing many other fossil specimens -- including teeth from an oreodont. Up until this oreodont find, the nearest fossil find of this animal to the area was about 250 miles farther to the north -- suggesting either a greater range than previously thought (but additional teeth/remains have not yet been discovered in the area) or being carried here by some unknown mechanism (a tsunami?). Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: mysticete posted Thu, Jul 12 2007, 11:07pm  A 13000 year old oredont would be almost as exciting as Miocene North American Ape. Sure you don't have a reworking issue (Oreodont died out some time in the Pliocene). I think Bruce MacFadden at U of Florida has described some Florida Oreodonts. Certainly, given how abundant they were, they would have pretty much occuppied all of North America Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: scmarlowe posted Fri, Jul 13 2007, 3:32am  While I'm certain about the designation, I still have some doubts about the dating. Russell McCarty at the U of F is who I went to about the find. He apparently used MacFadden's work to establish the range of the oreodont in North Florida -- suggesting that the find in Bradenton was much farther south than "previously known". I still believe that more evidence of the animal needs to be found to bs sure about dating and the possibility of disturbed fossil bed remains being carried here by some other mechanism than death of the animal at the place of find. So far, Bison, Cave Bear, Peccary, Mammoth, Manatee, Shark, Oreodont, Giant Beaver, and other remains have surfaced in this bone yard. The problem now is that the owner has closed off the property to further excavation in preparation to develop the land. Subject: Re: Biscardi footage and comparisons with fossil apes From: Arctodus posted Fri, Aug 31 2007, 4:01am  Huh?!? An end pleistocene oreodont?!? I agree that it is certainly possible that fossil hominids in north america may be underrepresented.We know that red pandas occupied north america during the middle pleistocene.The evidence, a single tooth out of Tennessee.A fossil dhole jaw has been recovered from a mexican bonebed 40,000 years old.

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