Cryptozoology forums > Cryptids > Mysterious Big Cats > view thread

Subject: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Thu, Oct 8 2009, 12:50pm  A big cat is reported to have been spotted in areas near Cairneyhill, Culross and Mossmorran throughout August and September....... Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Ursustyrannis posted Thu, Oct 8 2009, 5:35pm  Interesting! Talk to Darren Naish or the folks at Big Cats. They'll tell you that lynx scat is fairly common around that area. Lynx and puma seem to have survived and thrived after 1972 mass release. It seems that both species have established themselves in Britain. Prey is after all super abundant. IIRC, two or three lynx have been shot or captured over the years with no explanation of where they come from and two pumas have been recovered as road-kill. All were intact I believe, with claws. I don't know if necropsies were performed or not to determine stomach contents. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Thu, Oct 8 2009, 6:45pm  Yes, lynx have been shot & killed, or run over, on several occasions in the last few decades. The best-known case may be the 'Fintona Lynx' but a lynx was also shot in the '90s in Norfolk after killing 15 sheep in a fortnight (confirmed by police), a Eurasian lynx captured in London in 2001 (no escapes (obviously, maybe) had been reported) & a man in Kent scratched by one in 2001. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: john80c posted Fri, Oct 9 2009, 4:52am  There used to be Lynx in Peel Park zoo on Isle of Man- they are amazing animals and should be protected in the wild as they eat rodents and therefor fulfil a useful purpose. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Fri, Oct 9 2009, 7:39am  John, there are still Eurasian lynx being kept at Curragh's wildlife park on Man. My g/f's cousin lives in Douglas & has taken his kids there, & they've both told me their favourite animals are the lynx, the 'speccy owls' & the otters. Ursus makes a good point above about Naish's blog on UK cats. In fact it's from a speech to the UK Big Cat Conference. It's well worth a read: Britain's lost lynxes and wildcats : Tetrapod Zoology There are three possibilities regarding the theory of relict lynx surviving & being spotted in the UK. They're all misIDs, they're escaped & breeding animals or they've clung on. I don't hold with the third, but the first two seem, given the evidence on offer, to be not as unlikely as to be ruled out. If you know what I mean. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Fri, Oct 9 2009, 9:42am  Er, just a couple of points. Scat IS NOT common in that area. In fact although scat exists, it is not common in ANY area of the UK...........and I'd love to know how you are able to tell the difference between lynx and puma scat. There was NO MASS RELEASE in 1972. You may be confused with the Dangerous Wild Animals Act that was passed in 1976. HOWEVER, evidence of a mass release is a complete myth. There are anecdotal evidence of a few releases, but that is it. In fact sightings did not even increase in the years just before and just after 1976. Yes some lynx have been found. two alive, (both appeared to have been captive held at some time before recapture), one road kill and one shot. NO PUMAS have been found as road kill, to my knowledge. In fact the only Puma found was Felicity who was captured, and spent the rest of her life in a wild life park in Scotland. She was believed to be one of two pumas released a few months earlier. In saying all that, there is evidence that the lynx never went extinct in the Scottish Highlands, and hung on in small pockets. There are many professional ecologists, that are discussing the possibility of re-wilding parts of the UK, (with bear, wolves, lynx, beaver etc), who believe that there is no need to bring in the lynx because they are already there. I know research has been done on the possible problems of re-wilding and the effects it may have on the small but real population of lynx in the Highlands. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Fri, Oct 9 2009, 9:53am  There are many professional ecologists, that are discussing the possibility of re-wilding parts of the UK, (with bear, wolves, lynx, beaver etc), who believe that there is no need to bring in the lynx because they are already there..... Which ecologists believe that lynx are already there? I'd not heard that. Are they talking about relict northern Eurasian lynx, or breeding populations from escaped animals? Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Fri, Oct 9 2009, 4:44pm  The Biodiversity and Landscape History Research Institute held an "Invasive and Problem Species Conference" in Sheffield in September 2009. A good friend of mine Rick Minter, a professional ecologist was one of the speakers (Rick is the editor of ECOS, the quarterly journal of the British Association of Nature Conservationists). Anway, he mentioned that the ecologists who turned up to his session were more interested in the cats already here. They felt there was no need to reintroduce lynx. I got the impression that there were a variety of views on the origins of these lynx. I do know that Rick is of a similar mind to me, and neither of us rule out the relic population theory. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Lachie posted Wed, Oct 14 2009, 7:39pm  MacHaggis I just read this thread today. Coming as I do from the Stirling-Perthshire area and the reports I've seen over the years round this general area I like your line "and neither of us rule out the relic population theory." Not ruling out given the evidence is good. But - Is there any evidence apart from eyewitness? Cheers. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Thu, Oct 15 2009, 9:41am  We have is a lot of verbal evidence. But interestingly, a lot of it comes from "off the record" reports from farmers and gamekeepers. Also, if you look at the reports of lynx sightings all over the UK over the last few decades. The vast majority of them have come from the highland region of Scotland. Unfortunately our group Big Cats In Britain only has three Scottish reps, and no-one who can get out into the field in the regions that are hign in lynx sightings. We have trigger cameras available to be put out in locations, but we need a safe area to locate them, and we can't afford to lose any more to theft. Now if you have got any suggestions.................... Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: luna1580 posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 2:15am  "and I'd love to know how you are able to tell the difference between lynx and puma scat." -is it not true that we can only do that w/DNA lab work? yes, weird OOP big cats in britain appear to be fact.......... Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 1:01pm  -is it not true that we can only do that w/DNA lab work? Tests can be done on Ph & bile acid levels in scat. Mitochondrial DNA can be extracted & sequenced to determine speciation through PCR analysis. If the cat were a particularly OOP animal, with no such others close by, it mightn't have to get to that stage after physical analysis of the stuff by eye for dietary clues & so on. I'd imagine DNA sequencing may be needed to tell apart lynx & wildcat. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Ursustyrannis posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 4:09am  Sorry HcHaggis, I was under the impression that Pumas had been recovered as road-kill. I knew that Lynx were becoming accepted in the "Underground", from my readings of Darren Naish, I had the impression that New World Pumas were also becoming "accepted" with Leopards a distinct (low-breeding) fourth. The rabbit head cats and the mastiff cat are fascinating, but possibly localized mutants. I apologize for misinformation, apparently 1976 and 1984 were the primary "Ban against exotics" enacted. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 1:00pm  Don't worry. There is a lot of misinformation out there. Usually peddled by lazy journo's and lazy big cat "researchers". There is even a high profile UK big cat "researcher" who claims in his talks that the cats in the UK are descendants of the big cats the Romans brought over in the first century. In spite of the fact that there is NOT ONE piece of evidence. No archaeology, no writings, nothing. But if you stick to the info that the Big Cats In Britain and people like Darren Naish put out, then you'll get closer to the truth. Regarding the mastiff cat, I was there when Jonathon Mcgowan showed his road kill pic, (I've also seen the second one that he has rarely shown). He still gets ribbed for not collecting the carcass when he found it. Although how was he to know that it would disappear only a few hours later when he returned. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 4:34pm  Who could doubt them? The scary thing is that these are apparently mutant lynx without tails! Based on descriptions from the Culross and Cairneyhill sightings the beast has a sandy-coloured upper body, a white belly, feathered ear-tips and is without a tail. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 5:32pm  The Eurasian Lynx is a rather large cat with long legs and an extremely short tail. It has a stocky body with big, broad paws, long, powerful legs, a very short, black-tipped tail..... The tail of the Eurasian lynx is between 4" & 8" long. The bottom tip is black. Giving 2"-4" of tail to be noticed from a distance. NOT a noticeable feature. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 5:45pm  Lynxes have short tails with a prominent spot on the end. That's one of those things that lead you to conclude you are looking at a lynx - Gee, a short clubby tail, must be a lynx... Given that the sightings were as close as 45 feet (15 yards!) and in broad daylight, I think we can safely say that the tail would be noticeable. The fact that they claim the animal had no tail indicates they weren't looking at a lynx. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 5:54pm  You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion, although since you weren't an eyewitness to any of the events in question, I think I'd prefer to go on the details as provided, which point to the possibility of a Eurasian lynx/es. The Eurasian lynx has, as noted above, a short stubby tail with a black ending, not just the tip, as can be clearly seen from the photo above & the one below. The tail on the lynx below is held horizontal in a guarded post, not downward as above when more relaxed & when it'd be much less visible. It's not just "a spot". Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 6:12pm  Nice picture... Look! A tail! Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 6:36pm  Eaxtly, as I pointed out on at least four occasions. With a good 2-3" of the tip covered in black, not a black spot as you claimed. The headlines say the cats sighted were lynx, not me. I'm merely going through the eyewitness evidence available & pointing out just why such a short, stubby black-tipped tail might not be the first thing you'd notice if such a big cat hove into your line of view in daylight, unexpectedly. Perhaps you're confusing NA lynx with Eurasian lynx. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 6:50pm  See picture. See tail. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Sat, Oct 10 2009, 6:53pm  And see my response above this, which addresses your questions/challenges about as well as one can hope in the absence of any corroborative evidence. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 8:29am  Pathetic and pedantic reply, as one would come to expect from our Alaskan big cat expert. When a witness describes a sighting of a lynx, the two main features they comment on is "tufted ears" and "I couldn't see a tail". Everybody (well apart from Keith) knows what they mean, when they say it didn't have a tail. They mean, compared to other big cats, they couldn't see a long sweeping tail. Another pathetic, side tracking post, from our resident desperate sceptic. After all, our Alaskan Expert knows more about big cats in the UK from thousands of miles away, than professional conservationists and ecologists who actually work in the UK Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 9:13am  Since lynx & bobcat are of the same genus, & bobcats are named that for a reason, I would've thuoght the "no tail" comment quite easy to explain if, indeed, it's lynx we're talking about. And 'lynx' was the preferred choice of cat in the headline, not my proposal. It best matches the evidence to date, such as it is. Another thing regarding lynx tails is that their extreme shortness/stubbiness can indeed be rendered almost unseeable when not horizontal, due to the thick clumps of white hair on the insides of their back legs where the fawn/beige portion of the tail almost disappears into when not erect. All that can be seen is a smaller black anomaly not immediately obvious as a "tail". And no, the tip doesn't consist of a "black spot" as was claimed & which I refuted. Sightings, too, depend on angles of vision & perspective, as well, obviously, as light. See, below, this pic of a collared Eurasian lynx at night, close up, from almost side on, & tell me the tail is immediately obvious. It's not. Noticing a tail measuring 4-8" which may well be horizontal, with 5-6" of that tail indistinguishable in colour from its flanks, from a distance of 50-100 feet as in these cases, would be very very difficuilt IMO, & could quite easily lead to the "no tail" observations passed by witnesses. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Moon posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 3:31pm  I've been wondering for a while now, but why does Kodiak have a problem with Stu? He seems like a good guy elsewhere. I'm in Airdrie and am extremely interested in this kind of report. Question though: We continually hear how difficult it is to find the Scottish Wildcat, why has no-one came across a Lynx while looking? Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 4:55pm  I've been wondering for a while now, but why does Kodiak have a problem with Stu? He seems like a good guy elsewhere. I always start out politely with Stu and his cronies, but (particularly over on the politics board) they are known to descend into obscenities and personal insults. I sometimes respond in kind (which is a failing, I admit), but I never descend into the sort of gutter behavior that he displays almost daily. Look around this thread and others on the Big Cats forum for milder examples. I came here and stated my opinion and McHaggis insults me by calling me "pathetic". This is typical (though a relatively mild example) of the behavior I've come to expect from some of our members. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 6:51pm  Keith's main problem is that he likes to think he is an expert on Big Cat sightings in the UK. Somehow he is able from thousands of miles away, to conclude that there are NO big cats loose in the UK countryside. Whilst he is perfectly entitled to his opinion, he continually comes on these threads for no apparant reason but to show his ignorance. He asked for proof of prints, I showed him, and it still wasn't good enough He asked for proof of hair samples, I showed him, and it still wasn't good enough. Belief in big cats in the UK, includes government agencies, DEFRA, the Ministry of Defence, the police, professional wildlife film makers, ecologists, conservationists, zoologists, amongst others. But according to Keith they are all mistaken, and they only saw someones pet domestic cat. All Keith likes to do, whenever a UK big cat thread appears, is to somehow try and twist the facts to his own agenda, and NEVER actually adds anything worthwhile to the discussion of the thread Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 7:23pm  He asked for proof of prints, I showed him, and it still wasn't good enough Those prints were forwarded to one of the leading wildlife trackers in the world, who identified them as canine prints. He asked for proof of hair samples, I showed him, and it still wasn't good enough. Note: "hair samples" - plural. The simple fact of the matter is that cats are territorial. If a cat was present, then you could walk into its territory and gather prints, hairs, scats by the hundreds and you could do this every day year-round on a repeatable basis. If these cats were actually present, we wouldn't have anything to debate because because their existence would be firmly documented by thousands of prints, hairs, scats and unequivocal photos. One guy showing up with a single hair means nothing. We don't know if it came from a zoo, a rug, or an actual wild animal. You can come here to Kodiak and you may not see a bear (they're largely nocturnal), but you will see their tracks and hairs and be scraping their scats off your shoes within a short time after following any game track. This is the reality. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 3:27am  Yet again you pick and choose your FACTS. I was not talking about those prints, (prints that where confirmed as feline by TWO big cat experts, one in the UK and one from South Africa, but they don't count of course). I was talking about the link of a puma print, I posted where the print was confirmed by someone who OWNS big cats. And I see another twisting of the evidence, when you are now wanting more hairs, obviously one wasn't good enough. We have hundreds of hair samples, a lot have been confirmed as big cat under microscope comparisson. DNA testing has not been done due to the cost, which is beyond most peoples price range. Perhaps you should stick to your own native fauna, and restrict your comments to what you know. You know nothing what is occuring in the UK, and THAT is the reality Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 12:36pm  We have hundreds of hair samples, a lot have been confirmed as big cat under microscope comparisson. DNA testing has not been done due to the cost, which is beyond most peoples price range. Microscope analysis is meaningless. Remember the "unknown primate" print examined by leading experts that turned out to be a sheep when DNA analysis was finally done? I was not talking about those prints, (prints that where confirmed as feline by TWO big cat experts, one in the UK and one from South Africa, but they don't count of course). Well, I don't really know which one you're talking about. But as pointed out, if there was a big cat present, you could gather thousands of prints. There would be no question. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 4:40pm  After all, our Alaskan Expert knows more about big cats in the UK from thousands of miles away, than professional conservationists and ecologists who actually work in the UK For one thing, a lynx is not a "Big Cat". For another, I have seen (actual) big cats in the wild, as well as their smaller cousins of the lynx/bobcat variety. Limited as my cat experience may be, it surpasses that of most "UK big cat hunters". When a witness describes a sighting of a lynx, the two main features they comment on is "tufted ears" and "I couldn't see a tail". Oddly, the thing I recall in my own sightings was that they had a short tail, which indicated (to me) the type of cat I was looking at. Another pathetic, side tracking post, from our resident desperate sceptic. Yes, anyone who doubts that the remaining patches of woods in the densely populated UK aren't teeming with black leopards and cougars and must be "pathetic". It's hard to argue such logic... Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 6:41pm  Yet again another pedantic and pathetic post first you try to bring out the old "big cat/little cat" routine, when AGAIN everyone knows what we are talking about Your sightings in Alaska have NOTHING to do with sightings in the UK and your comments are yet another red herring. and your final point about woods teeming with leopards, is yet again another twisting of the truth you love to do. I have NEVER said that the UK is "teeming" with big cats. In fact I have said the opposite. So maybe I should repeat myself YET AGAIN, so it'll eventually sink into your brain. My personal opinion is that there are maybe a couple of dozen leopards and pumas in the UK. No more than that. There is a small breeding population of Lynx in the highlands of Scotland, maybe 30-40. The other lynx sightings in the UK are deliberate releases, (we have anecdotal proof from official sources that a re-wilding group released 5 lynx, originally obtained in France and released in three places in the UK), and escapes, (including those from canned hunts, which the police are currently investigating) there are hundreds of the smaller wildcats, jungle cats, leopard cats, servals, etc, mostly escapees from un-registered breeders of designer cats Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Sun, Oct 11 2009, 7:08pm  Yet again another pedantic and pathetic post Yes, of course. Anyone who disagrees must be both pedantic and pathetic... My personal opinion is that there are maybe a couple of dozen leopards and pumas in the UK. No more than that. Yet, in one of the most densely populated areas of the world, nobody can find even one of them. There is a small breeding population of Lynx in the highlands of Scotland, maybe 30-40 See above - not really possible in such a densely populated environment without being observed on almost a daily basis. And yes, I know in your mind that Scotland is wild and unpopulated, but the actual facts of the matter are otherwise. There's no reason lynx couldn't do well in much of the UK, but if they were already there then one could go into their territory and find all the evidence needed to prove it. The fact that nobody can go out and find the tracks, scats, hairs, trail-can pix, on a daily basis indicates that they simply are not there. That's my opinion. There's no reason to start up an insult-fest because you disagree. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: McHaggis posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 3:17am  You have NEVER been to the highlands of Scotland, if you had, then you would never had made such a statement. Stop looking at google maps, they tell you nothing of the countryside in the UK. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 8:50am  The Highlands are densely populated? Please......... Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Moon posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 2:16pm  Guys, I didn't want to start a fight with my question/comments, I'm sorry for detracting from an interesting thread. For the record, the Highlands are far from densely populated. With due respect Keith, you are in Alaska and 3 of us are from Scotland. We may be better placed to comment than your good self. The only other comment I have is that obviously Keith is a very experienced watcher of wildlife (your pics are very good) and that could account for him seeing a lynx and noticing a short tail, and the average person seeing a lynx and not noticing the tail. Especially as you are not expecting to see a bigger than domestic cat in Britain. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 2:38pm  Re. your last paragraph - good points all. I was in the Highlands again recently. I walked around 15 miles over a full day & saw not one person. It was great. And you can do it in so many places. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: KodiakKeith posted Mon, Oct 12 2009, 4:10pm  I suppose "densely populated" is a very relative term. I'm not arguing that there isn't plenty of habitat for lynx. There is of course suitable habitat across much of the UK, and especially in the Highlands. My argument is that even in the highlands there isn't enough space to support a breeding population of lynx that remains largely unobserved and unknown. Cats (including lynx), are territorial. They move around within their territory on established trails, leaving thousands of tracks every day. They advertise their territory to other lynx by leaving scats and urine scent posts along trails and further marking these spots with claw marks on trees. Cats in themselves are elusive creatures. But their presence is easily demonstrated because their instinctual behavior is to advertise that presence. And this is the crux of my argument and the source of my skepticism. If the cats were there, anybody (including yourself), could go out and follow the game trails to photograph hundreds of tracks, collect scats, hairs, etc. Try it some time. Go out in the country and start following some sketchy deer trail that leads off from any established human foot trails. Do this a few days after a heavy rain when the ground has had a few days to collect tracks. You'll find the tracks of every animal present in the vicinity. If you stoop or crawl into the low brushy zones, you'll find hairs clinging to branches along the paths. If the cats were there, somebody would have done this. We wouldn't be discussing one blurry photo of a paw print, we'd be talking about a hundred clear images, a dozen bagged scats and hair samples, etc, all collected on the same day. And if anyone still doubted, you could back the next day and get a hundred more samples, and the day after that, and... This is the issue, at least me for me. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Lachie posted Wed, Oct 14 2009, 4:51pm  Am agreeing with you, Moon. Am from Dollar, & the area even between the Ochils & Blackford in south Perthshire is plenty sparse. There've been times I've been walking up there up and over the Kings Seat or Ben Cleuch down to Perthshire and not seen a soul. I think you said you are from Airdrie. As I recall, Lanarkshire has some pretty heavily wooded and remote moorland and especially on the way down to the borders, places where farming runs out and theres not much at all. Am not saying that there must be things like lynxes running round but plenty space both wooded and open so as its not impossible. You have to live here to know, not just look up google maps or take your info from a Highlands coach tour round the distilleries of strathspey or an overnight in Oban. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Moon posted Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:31pm  Exactly Lachie, Southern Lanarkshire basically runs from not far south of Larkhall all the way to Gretna with not much in between. (for clarification, and to escape an unwanted banning for misinformation, it is more populated than the Highlands) Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: Stu posted Fri, Oct 16 2009, 4:39am  One can only know terrain by actually being or going there. Lachie's right. Deforestation aside, huge swathes of Scotland, not just the Highlands, are remote & mainly untrammelled except by forestry or estate workers. Subject: Re: Three spot lynx on the loose in West Fife From: geckodude2themax posted Fri, Oct 16 2009, 9:36am  isn't it true if you are going there you are being there? its a little redundant but i can tell what you mean about that.

Close Window