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Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:07pm 
And we're going full circle back to my original point, people with extremist viewpoints and violent propensities are not pumping on all cylinders.

But extremists do not represent the mainstream views of others. Timothy McVeigh didn't represent Christians in America (although he was influenced by the teachings from the likes Christian Identity and the KKK) anymore than Hasan represents Islam (who appears to have been, in the end, influenced by Islamists). Unless of course, we want to agree that McVeigh was a Christian extremist.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Megaraptor posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:30pm 
Considering that Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic, I would definitely say that he didn't represent Christians in America.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:45pm 
McVeigh claimed to be an agnostic. He was raised Irish Catholic and had ties to so-called "Christian" groups who taught racial hatred.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:38pm 
And we're going full circle back to my original point, people with extremist viewpoints and violent propensities are not pumping on all cylinders.

I agree, mostly... The problem is that no matter your quirk, there are political and religious movements that will feed this and "justify" your violent inclinations. The biggest such movement (by a scale of at least 1000/1) is Islamic fundamentalism.

Look at the background coming up on Hasan and you get a picture of a friendless socially inept 39 year old virgin. Sad perhaps, but without a worldwide network preaching hatred and targeting people just like Hasan, we'd have no violent outburst.

The problem is not unibrowed 39 year old virgins, it is Islamo-fascism.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:55pm 
The problem is not unibrowed 39 year old virgins, it is Islamo-fascism.

Islamic extremism, Christian Identity, KKK, the common thread is that they are magnets for anti-social personalities who seek out anti-social activities, oft times because they feel ostracized by the larger community. Those types of groups are a secondary issue and we (as a society) need to be proactive in seeking out ways to help those who find themselves being drawn to those organization before they are trapped by those groups.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:50pm 
How to help individuals like Hasan? Get him laid? You're not going to deal with hard issues with fuzzy feelings and support groups. Islamic extremism is not a "secondary issue", it's the primary one.

And frankly, it doesn't help to lump in the KKK and Christian extremists with Islamic extremism - the scale of difference is off the chart. More people are killed by Islamists every day than have been killed by the KKK in the last 50 years. It's like comparing chihuaha attacks to pit bull attacks.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Rainbow Medicine Man posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:54pm 
Getting laid is ALWAYS a good idea...
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 2:08pm 
His virginity wasn't his problem. His problem seemed to rotate around an inability to stay in the real world. The fact that his patient load was either drastically reduced (or removed) had nothing to do with him not getting laid. It had to do with psychological and/or professional problems identified by his peers. The fact the local Imam chose not to have become a Muslim chaplain in his unit had nothing to do with him being a 39 year old virgin.

And extremists are extremists, whether they claim to adhere to a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, animist, agnostic or animal rights ideology. To deny the threat of one is like ignoring a carcinoma just because it's small.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 2:17pm 
His problem seemed to rotate around an inability to stay in the real world.

And that is what defines an Islamic extremist. Some fuzzy make-believe world in the sky is more important than the real world around them.

And extremists are extremists, whether they claim to adhere to a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, animist, agnostic or animal rights ideology. To deny the threat of one is like ignoring a carcinoma just because it's small.

They should all be watched, but Islam is like a full blown metastasizing cancer while the others are more akin to a "let's get that skin discoloration checked" kind of issue. Islam is killing hundreds every day, while the others are killing one per decade. There is a profound difference in scale and it's not a good idea to pretend otherwise.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:30pm 
Every time I read you speak I can't shake off the feeling I'm listening to an extremist. And a somewhat fanatical one as well.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 7:08pm 
Yes of course - the people shrieking about Allah and blowing up children aren't extremists, it's the people who are concerned about all the blood that are the extremists.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 7:25pm 
people shrieking about Allah and blowing up children.
Ofcourse they are extremists but their numbers are grossly exaggerated for the purpose of fearmongering and keeping us in a perpetual state of war.

People however that are driven into a corner and feel that they have nothing to loose because life under occupation is unacceptable to them but want to free their country from this occupation for their childrens' sake and are willing to sacrifice their own lifes for this purpose are somewhat in a different catagory than those that you always bring to the party.
I'm sure that if Alaska was invaded by Russia China or whatever nation and started telling you what you can and can't do and that you have to accept and live by their ideology. you would do the same. especially if their invation of your country came with a very high number of collateral damage which could be your own children or your neighbours'.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: KodiakKeith posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 1:15pm 
Ofcourse they are extremists but their numbers are grossly exaggerated for the purpose of fearmongering and keeping us in a perpetual state of war.

Go to google news and type in Terrorist Attack. Ignore Iraq and Afghanistan and just read the reports on "unoccupied" nations. You'll find Islamic terrorists busily at work across the globe.
This is reality. This was going on before we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and it will continue after we leave. The rise of Islamo-fascism has nothing to do with the west. It is a religious and political movement arising from radical Islam.

You are free to ignore reality and blame the victims if you choose.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:49pm 
The biggest difference between us is our view of Islam as a religion. Having friends over a couple of decades who are Muslim, I have had people I can ask questions of. I don't believe for a moment that those who claim to be Islamists are anymore Islamic than those who have gathered under the Christian Identity are Christian.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 7:06pm 
Of course the average Muslim isn't an extremist, particularly here in this country, but there is an enormous movement underway around the Muslim world and people are dying every day in the name of Islam. We would be foolish to ignore that fact or to dismiss as an odd footnote of history like the KKK.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Megaraptor posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 12:54am 
That's funny. In my experience, the Muslims most condemnatory towards Islamists are those who follow Islam the least strictly - no hijab, no fasting during Ramadan, etc. Why should I believe their views on what amounts to true Islam when they are obviously not extremely devout themselves?
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 10:20am 
The Muslims I know adhere to the Koran pretty clearly from what I have seen. A couple of them pause to pray facing to the East several times a day. None of them support terrorism or the extremist ideas of the Jihadists and Extremists. In fact, they say that those who commit those attrocities are not true Muslims.

And numerous Imams and others have come out against the "Islamic" extremists. Much as numerous Christians have come out against those who claim to kill in the name of Christ (like those who kill abortion doctors). Why so few of them get press and the "terrorists" do is beyond me. I guess it's because those who preach that men should live together in peace aren't as newsworthy as they who commit murders in the name of religion. Paranoia sells.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Megaraptor posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 11:59am 
Paranoia exists amongst Muslim Americans too. Most of them I have met think there is a massive conspiracy against them in American society, and that the media, the government, and the Jews are all out to tar them as extremists.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 12:06pm 
Yup, paranoia sells.......
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: Megaraptor posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 1:35pm 
And it will continue to sell for as long as it remains easy to blame someone else for your problems.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: lowredx posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:39pm 
Your wasting your time here Bill, just do what a good patriotic conservative would do. Go find a muslim and threaten them or slice their tires or something. If you can't find a muslim, then somebody from India will due in a pinch.
Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:03pm 
We've got some friends from India. The husband is Hindu and the wife is Muslim (think that over for a moment LOL). Their family gatherings are often just a step away from open warfare LOL.

I guess I could stop by their house today and key their cars or light up a bag of dog poo on their porch. But their retaliation would be brutal. Like inviting us over for some really, spicy hot and absolutely delicious Indian food. And after two or three plates of that, I'd REALLY be suffering LOL.


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