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Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 11:57am  "Not thinking right" is another way of saying he was a Muslim extremist. Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You're set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat. And I said to the psychiatrist, but this could be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he's educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I'm a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don't believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn't say, well, I'm just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down. I want to add something else about Hasan at Walter Reed. The psychiatrist I talked to today said that he was the kind of guy who the staff actually stood around in the hallway, saying: Do you think he's a terrorist, or is he just weird? And now, apparently, Walter Reed is in a lockdown mode where they've been instructed - all the staff has been instructed: Do not talk to anybody about this investigation, except military people. Do not talk to the FBI Officials Begin Putting Shooting Pieces Together : NPR Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:03pm  So you genuinely believe Hasan was a pre-prepared fully-fledged member of an extremist Muslim-faith terrorist organisation? Yes or no will do, thanks. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:25pm  I don't see any evidence that he was a member of an organization... yet. But he was certainly a Muslim extremist who carried out a terrorist attack. That's indisputable. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:46pm  How's it indisputable? So far, what we have is a lot of hearsay, malicious rumblings, uncorroborated claims, & a guy who was quite obviously f**ed up & happened to be a Muslim, about to be deployed to fight Muslim extremists. Since much of the corroborative evidence this far points to his increasing desperation to get out of the army after having to take on board a series of emotional landmines, I'd say he flipped. PJ's theory of 'cop suicide' might not be so far off the mark either, but whatever, there's nothing confirmed yet to show his act was a political one. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:55pm  How's it indisputable? "Allahu Akbar" bang, bang, bang... Indisputable. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 2:04pm  And it's been proven he shouted this? No it hasn't. Wait for the investigation to show their results, one of which might well be that he shouted this, before wearing your Islamophobic little heart on your sleeve. And learn to spell. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 4:05pm  Uh yeah, perhaps he was screaming "Who keyed my car?" and his motives were completely misunderstood. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:21pm  Even if he did shout this, it doesn't mean it was a terrorist attack by a muslim fanatic. Maybe to call out God Is Great is just what you say when you think you might die. Something like making the sign of the cross. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: ElmerFudd posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 9:31pm  Around 1:30 p.m. Thursday, witnesses say a man later identified as Hasan jumped up on a desk and shouted the words "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God is great!" He was armed with at least one semiautomatic pistol capable of firing up to 20 rounds without reloading. He shot about 100 rounds before civilian police officer Kim Munley wounded him with four rounds. Though his motive remains unclear, speculation has swirled that he was dreading his own imminent deployment to the battlefields in Afghanistan, where he was to continue his work counseling fellow soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress and other mental turmoil. W I T N E S S E S ........Stu (Waiting now for Stu to claim it is a combined pentagon and right wing conspiracy to whip up Muslim bigotry...) Relatives and associates say Hasan was critical of both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and did everything he could to avoid being on the frontlines. A radical muslim murderer and a coward.....well they go together... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 7:18am  Don't be so stupid. The only person thus far claiming he shouted this is Cones. It's uncorroborated. And if or when it is, it's no sign of an Islamic terrorist, just the happy little nudge you haters need to blame it all on the Big Bad Muslims. You, Meg, KK et al have done nothing but seethe & foam at the mouth about 'radical Islam extremists' since this awful act occurred, with hardly even a word about its consequences. I've hardly watched any analysis of the 'why' as yet. The 'what' has been far too grave to allow for much else - except in the heads of the haters, of course. Shame on the lot of you. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: ElmerFudd posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 6:02pm  I guess you won't be happy until there is some recording huh? Witnesses count and they are saying the same thing..... BTW check out my latest post if you want to see a "hater".... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 6:03pm  Get a grip. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: ElmerFudd posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 10:50pm  Start logical debating and quit playing the Holier-than-thou Troll.... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Tue, Nov 10 2009, 2:31am  If you really think I'm a troll, you'd never debate with me, so get a grip. 'Holier-than-thou' is your excoriating comeback response to points you might not want to hear while some of us are not so keen as you to jump on the 'THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING! THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING!' bandwagon? That's it? All you ever do is run down your country, your govt. & the majority who voted them in. It's not even comment or positive criticism, it's just pure & simple blatherskitery. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you won't be, folk like you never are, until you erally really need the very thing you so blithely whine against. And such an apt choice of phrase too, considering my spiritual position...... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: ElmerFudd posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 9:26pm  ROFL.......arguing with Stu in these matters is a waste of time....he just wants to see how long you will keep it up... He can calmly claim 2 + 2 = 5 for days until you just give up..... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: MY2KPNY posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 12:28pm  ummmm...pot....? This is the kettle... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Stu posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 2:07pm  ROFLMAO etc..... Stu's not "arguing". Stu is pointing out facts & fallacies yet to be corroborated. Sorry to rain on your Islamobonfire, Fud. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:07pm  And we're going full circle back to my original point, people with extremist viewpoints and violent propensities are not pumping on all cylinders. But extremists do not represent the mainstream views of others. Timothy McVeigh didn't represent Christians in America (although he was influenced by the teachings from the likes Christian Identity and the KKK) anymore than Hasan represents Islam (who appears to have been, in the end, influenced by Islamists). Unless of course, we want to agree that McVeigh was a Christian extremist. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Megaraptor posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:30pm  Considering that Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic, I would definitely say that he didn't represent Christians in America. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:45pm  McVeigh claimed to be an agnostic. He was raised Irish Catholic and had ties to so-called "Christian" groups who taught racial hatred. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:38pm  And we're going full circle back to my original point, people with extremist viewpoints and violent propensities are not pumping on all cylinders. I agree, mostly... The problem is that no matter your quirk, there are political and religious movements that will feed this and "justify" your violent inclinations. The biggest such movement (by a scale of at least 1000/1) is Islamic fundamentalism. Look at the background coming up on Hasan and you get a picture of a friendless socially inept 39 year old virgin. Sad perhaps, but without a worldwide network preaching hatred and targeting people just like Hasan, we'd have no violent outburst. The problem is not unibrowed 39 year old virgins, it is Islamo-fascism. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:55pm  The problem is not unibrowed 39 year old virgins, it is Islamo-fascism. Islamic extremism, Christian Identity, KKK, the common thread is that they are magnets for anti-social personalities who seek out anti-social activities, oft times because they feel ostracized by the larger community. Those types of groups are a secondary issue and we (as a society) need to be proactive in seeking out ways to help those who find themselves being drawn to those organization before they are trapped by those groups. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:50pm  How to help individuals like Hasan? Get him laid? You're not going to deal with hard issues with fuzzy feelings and support groups. Islamic extremism is not a "secondary issue", it's the primary one. And frankly, it doesn't help to lump in the KKK and Christian extremists with Islamic extremism - the scale of difference is off the chart. More people are killed by Islamists every day than have been killed by the KKK in the last 50 years. It's like comparing chihuaha attacks to pit bull attacks. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Rainbow Medicine Man posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:54pm  Getting laid is ALWAYS a good idea... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 2:08pm  His virginity wasn't his problem. His problem seemed to rotate around an inability to stay in the real world. The fact that his patient load was either drastically reduced (or removed) had nothing to do with him not getting laid. It had to do with psychological and/or professional problems identified by his peers. The fact the local Imam chose not to have become a Muslim chaplain in his unit had nothing to do with him being a 39 year old virgin. And extremists are extremists, whether they claim to adhere to a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, animist, agnostic or animal rights ideology. To deny the threat of one is like ignoring a carcinoma just because it's small. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 2:17pm  His problem seemed to rotate around an inability to stay in the real world. And that is what defines an Islamic extremist. Some fuzzy make-believe world in the sky is more important than the real world around them. And extremists are extremists, whether they claim to adhere to a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, animist, agnostic or animal rights ideology. To deny the threat of one is like ignoring a carcinoma just because it's small. They should all be watched, but Islam is like a full blown metastasizing cancer while the others are more akin to a "let's get that skin discoloration checked" kind of issue. Islam is killing hundreds every day, while the others are killing one per decade. There is a profound difference in scale and it's not a good idea to pretend otherwise. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:30pm  Every time I read you speak I can't shake off the feeling I'm listening to an extremist. And a somewhat fanatical one as well. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 7:08pm  Yes of course - the people shrieking about Allah and blowing up children aren't extremists, it's the people who are concerned about all the blood that are the extremists. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 7:25pm  people shrieking about Allah and blowing up children. Ofcourse they are extremists but their numbers are grossly exaggerated for the purpose of fearmongering and keeping us in a perpetual state of war. People however that are driven into a corner and feel that they have nothing to loose because life under occupation is unacceptable to them but want to free their country from this occupation for their childrens' sake and are willing to sacrifice their own lifes for this purpose are somewhat in a different catagory than those that you always bring to the party. I'm sure that if Alaska was invaded by Russia China or whatever nation and started telling you what you can and can't do and that you have to accept and live by their ideology. you would do the same. especially if their invation of your country came with a very high number of collateral damage which could be your own children or your neighbours'. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 1:15pm  Ofcourse they are extremists but their numbers are grossly exaggerated for the purpose of fearmongering and keeping us in a perpetual state of war. Go to google news and type in Terrorist Attack. Ignore Iraq and Afghanistan and just read the reports on "unoccupied" nations. You'll find Islamic terrorists busily at work across the globe. This is reality. This was going on before we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and it will continue after we leave. The rise of Islamo-fascism has nothing to do with the west. It is a religious and political movement arising from radical Islam. You are free to ignore reality and blame the victims if you choose. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:49pm  The biggest difference between us is our view of Islam as a religion. Having friends over a couple of decades who are Muslim, I have had people I can ask questions of. I don't believe for a moment that those who claim to be Islamists are anymore Islamic than those who have gathered under the Christian Identity are Christian. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: KodiakKeith posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 7:06pm  Of course the average Muslim isn't an extremist, particularly here in this country, but there is an enormous movement underway around the Muslim world and people are dying every day in the name of Islam. We would be foolish to ignore that fact or to dismiss as an odd footnote of history like the KKK. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Megaraptor posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 12:54am  That's funny. In my experience, the Muslims most condemnatory towards Islamists are those who follow Islam the least strictly - no hijab, no fasting during Ramadan, etc. Why should I believe their views on what amounts to true Islam when they are obviously not extremely devout themselves? Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 10:20am  The Muslims I know adhere to the Koran pretty clearly from what I have seen. A couple of them pause to pray facing to the East several times a day. None of them support terrorism or the extremist ideas of the Jihadists and Extremists. In fact, they say that those who commit those attrocities are not true Muslims. And numerous Imams and others have come out against the "Islamic" extremists. Much as numerous Christians have come out against those who claim to kill in the name of Christ (like those who kill abortion doctors). Why so few of them get press and the "terrorists" do is beyond me. I guess it's because those who preach that men should live together in peace aren't as newsworthy as they who commit murders in the name of religion. Paranoia sells. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Megaraptor posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 11:59am  Paranoia exists amongst Muslim Americans too. Most of them I have met think there is a massive conspiracy against them in American society, and that the media, the government, and the Jews are all out to tar them as extremists. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 12:06pm  Yup, paranoia sells....... Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: Megaraptor posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 1:35pm  And it will continue to sell for as long as it remains easy to blame someone else for your problems. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: lowredx posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 12:39pm  Your wasting your time here Bill, just do what a good patriotic conservative would do. Go find a muslim and threaten them or slice their tires or something. If you can't find a muslim, then somebody from India will due in a pinch. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 1:03pm  We've got some friends from India. The husband is Hindu and the wife is Muslim (think that over for a moment LOL). Their family gatherings are often just a step away from open warfare LOL. I guess I could stop by their house today and key their cars or light up a bag of dog poo on their porch. But their retaliation would be brutal. Like inviting us over for some really, spicy hot and absolutely delicious Indian food. And after two or three plates of that, I'd REALLY be suffering LOL. Subject: Re: Another indication that Hasan wasn't thinking rationally From: MY2KPNY posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 12:24pm  Swap out the words "Muslim" and "Koran" and replace with "Christian" and "Bible." There are Christians with extremist views serving in our military and nobody bats an eye. But as soon as the suspect is dark skinned with a "funny sounding" name quoting passages from the Koran and providing commentary, then things are suddenly very different. Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You're set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat. And I said to the psychiatrist, but this could be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he's educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I'm a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don't believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn't say, well, I'm just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down.

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