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Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Journasaurous posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 9:55am 
I agree. The idea that we could leave and Al Qaeda won't make us pay is a serious mistake.
I think with Pakistan's help, we can deny Al Qaeda a place to train, and the Taliban the will to enslave.
Of course I've been wrong before. I was wrong about Iraq since the whole country devolved into civil war and mass chaos has taken over. ;)
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Stu posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 10:13am 
The majority of British people are waking up to the same feeling as the Russian people woke up to in the late 1980s.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Journasaurous posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 11:20am 
I am hoping that 'feelings' are tempered with good sense. If you leave them alone, they will NOT leave us alone. Who knows, maybe they will suddenly have a change of heart, of religion, of political ideals. Maybe Jesus will persuade them to leave us in peace.
What do you think Stu? Do you think if we pull out, we will have to go back? Do you think they will stop trying to kill us with terrorism?
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Stu posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 11:27am 
Since the initial premises for intervention - removal of the Taliban, kill/capture the head honchos of Al'Qaeda - haven't been too successful, I'd have to say we're still only in there because we think we're 'right'. The fundamentalists in Afghanistan KNOW they're 'right', & there's no two ways about it with them. It's a totally different mindset. Withdraw, work in international union to flush out terrorists & don't let the vast majority of innocent civilians suffer for the sake of a suicidal few. Closer co-operation with Pakistan & less willingness to endorse a corrupt & rigged government in Afghanistan re both required. This war can't be won by conventional & legal international military means, as was proven in the '80s when the Russians had enough & got out after 10 years. Will acts of terrorism stop? Probably not - whether we're there or not.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 4:57pm 
The war on terror was designed to be a perpetual war against all people potentially anywhere. They will not pull out because of public opinion but only when they have created a new theatre of war. At the moment it looks to be shifting to Pakistan and Iran but a war on Terrorism in the homelands is close at hand as well.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 11:56am 
George Bush and the Neo-Cons made a big error in the beginning of both the Iraqi and Afghan wars in that he tried to fight the war on a budget that allowed for his tax breaks for the wealthy. The number of troops sent were inadequate for the tasks at hand. Early gains were offset by subsequent events.

In Afghanistan, the ability to cut of the retreats into Pakistan were lost by not having enough US forces available for the task and needing to depend upon some Pashtun tribal leaders whose allegiances were doubtful. The war against al Qaeda foreign fighters and those who directed that 9/11 attack in Afghanistan became a war against Afghans (Taliban and supporting tribal members). And now we find ourselves propping up a corrupt Afghan government that governs Kabul, but has little to no influence in the remainder of Afghanistan. NATO is in a tough place now.

As long as NATO looks like an occupier that is supporting a corrupt Afghan government, NATO will be unable to win the peace. And that means the war would never be won. And NATOs friendly fire mistakes aren't helping out the situation for NATO soldiers on the ground.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Journasaurous posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 2:13pm 
Pakistan is now cutting off their retreat, and the Obama government is insisting on reforms that will decrease corruption.
In my opinion, you can't let them win so they can keep on attacking us.
I do understand that the way forward is tough, but these guys have killed thousands before, and I am SCARED that they will do it again. and again. and again. We can't just withdraw all Western troops from the middle east, just so some religious zealot is not offended by infidels on holy ground.
I think the difference between the effort the communists made and ours is that we really are making a difference to the people. We just need to solidify the security, and the growth will be incredible. I don't want to give up yet. Well, I do in a way, but I just think we shouldn't. I notice Obama is taking his time and quietly putting the heat on the Afghan government. Let's hope it works.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:09pm 
Man...
9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB..... There is NO al Queda There are not any significant terrorist groups. Your government is ruled by unelected global bankers in whose interest it is to keep the world at war with itself. These Are the people that killed thousands in Manhattan and hundreds of thousands in Afganistan and Iraq. All justified under FALSE PRETENSES.

I'm getting so sick of your warmongering out of misplaced fear for the wrong people.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:35pm 
Journ is from Canada. Are you telling us that Canadians were behind the 9/11 attack? Those devious SOBs..........
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Jesse R posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:38pm 
I'm just assuming we are talking about USA politics in this forum unless specifically specified otherwise.
But yeh ...ha ha.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: BillB posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 5:44pm 
Obama seems to be reaching out to the less hardline Taliban groups. That would be a good idea as Afghans are more conservative in their view of Islam than even most people in Pakistan. If the Afghan government does not represent the people, it will fall and the gamble will be about who fills the vacuum left behind.

And the concept that some religious zealots are offended by infidels in their holy land is not fully correct. The Arab nations have been conquered and occupied for most of the 19th and 20th centuries. And sometimes that occupation has been by Muslims (the Turks). That is as much the problem in the Arab mind about Israel as is anything.

We need to leave, sooner than later. But we have to leave something behind that is stable, strong and representative of the Afghan people. Let's see if we can do that.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Journasaurous posted Sat, Nov 7 2009, 10:37pm 
I was referring to Al Qaeda, who are offended by US boots in Saudi Arabia. I think any Islamic country where infidels are allowed would be enought reason for Al Qaeda to kill us all.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: BillB posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 12:20am 
I was referring to the Arabs, who for nearly two centuries have lived under control of non-Arabs. That is who we must convince we are not there to occupy, but instead leave them with a clean and stable country.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Journasaurous posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 2:46am 
I would go for that. That's what the goal has been all along. I do believe the Afghans have a government that represents them. Now they need to learn what good government is. That's where Canadians come in. Oh yeah, we are also kicking Taliban butt....
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: BillB posted Sun, Nov 8 2009, 10:23am 
The Afghan government is still in question, but with a real buy loyal opposition, that is a beginning. A multiple party system with a free and transparent one person/one vote system is the best way to get there.

If we ever want to bring our respective troops home, we need that.
Subject: Re: Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls
From: Journasaurous posted Mon, Nov 9 2009, 3:15am 
I agree. I'm not pessimistic about some election problems. The problems were exposed, just as they should have been. I would have wished that the worthy opponent wouldn't have chickened out when he was offered a re-run though.


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