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Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Sat, May 21 2005, 5:22pm  Okay. But 10-12 tons is so possible. But there is no doubt that a pod of orca can kill and kill large whales. Even female sperm whales and calves were attacked recently by a pod of orcas. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Sat, May 21 2005, 5:56pm  Many many animals, even very small ones, are maximized in many books, and in fact many weights and lengths aren´t corect. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Sun, May 22 2005, 6:56am  I read some mistakes about Spinosaurus. There are evidence that Spinosaurus was over than 17 m at adult age. A 17 m spinosaurs wouldn't BE only 4 tons. It would be not a predatorn but a skeleton. A 11 m long suchomimus is estimated to 4 tons so why a far longer spinosaurus would be this weight ? A 17 m long spinosaurus would be AT LEAST 8 or even 10 tons. And the holotype found by Stromer was a subadult. Spinosaurus is not only longer than ther other large land predatory dinosaurs but also a bit heavier. JP 3 is totally right. I don't bringing up Jack Horner but this guy is just about that point. Maybe the newest T-rex or Giganotosaurus's soucins specimens could be as heavy or heavier than Spinosaurus but in my opinion, this guy is the baddest of large predatory dinosaurs and the largest terrestrial predator of all time. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Mon, May 23 2005, 11:18am  The 10 meter Suchomimus (Likely synonomous with Baryonyx) is estimated to be about 2 tonnes. Spinosaurus was an extremely lightly built predator. Anyone who gives a weight of 8 to 10 tonnes is wrong. It would have weighed approximately 4 to 5 tonnes. Besides, Spinosaurus was a piscivore Calling JP3 "totally right" does not bode well for any of your assertions. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Tue, May 24 2005, 4:59am  There are many many ridiculous weight estimations, most paleonthologists are really very bad mathematicians. 2 tons for a 10m theropod are much too less. If Spinosaurus really reached 17m lenght, 10 tons would be plausible, or even too less. If you take a bull of about 800 kg, and compare it with suchomimus, you´ll see it was much more than twice of the bull´s mass. In fact theropods like spinosaurus and suchomimus had a lightly-built head, but the rest of the body wasn´t much lighter than those of other theropods. A 10m Suchomimus had a weight of about 5-6 tons, not 2. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Tue, May 24 2005, 2:04pm  And where do you get your sources, pray tell? Considering that Allosaurus was 10 m long and is generally estimated to be about 2 tonnes (not tons), I'd say Suchomimus is that size too. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Wed, May 25 2005, 4:24pm  2 tonnes are too less for a 10m Allosaurus too. Allosaurus was a bulky guy, not as strong as tyrannosaurus, but strong enough. My source is the logic. Imagine a 10m theropod which weighs only 2 tonnes! This guy would look very strange. Crocodiles are heavier built than theropods, but theropods were strong built too. A 10m crocodile would have a weight of about 5,5 metric tons, and now try to imagine a crocodile with 36% of its normal mass. This crocodile would look very very strange, and a theropod like allosaurus was heavier built than such a croc. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ozraptor4 posted Wed, May 25 2005, 11:39pm  > Imagine a 10m theropod which weighs only 2 tonnes! Sounds about right to me. there are 2 methods for calculating the mass of fossil animals (admittedly neither of which are very precise but are better than nothing) - 1) Create a scale model of the living animal that shows the likely shape of the intact animal - for example a high-quality plastic toy like those put out by Battat. You then either - a) dunk the model in a beaker that is brim-full of water and measure the volume that overflows or b) weigh a container of water on a balance, submerge the model on a piece of wire without touching the container and check the reading - by Archimedes' Principle the extra weight is the mass of a volume of water = volume of the model animal. Once you have the volume of the animal, you determine the volume of the actual animal by scaling up and the animal's mass calculated by multiplying by the animal's probable density. Modern reptiles have almost the same density as water (1kg per m2) so we assume that extinct reptiles had a similar density. 2) Measure the circumference of the humerus and femur. Heavier animals have thicker leg bones and a formula has been used to calculate dino-masses from these measurements (I've never used it though). Most studies have given a 1-2 ton weight for a 10m allosaur. I haven't seen a rigorous mass-estimate for Suchomimus but I'd anticipate it to be a bit heavier than an allosaur owing the added weight of the large neural-spines. > Crocodiles are heavier built than theropods, but theropods were strong built too. Theropods (even T.rex and spinosaurs) in general are incredibly lightly built animals and will generally be lighter than a similar length mammal, ornithischian or croc. SOURCES - Alexander, R. McN. (1989). Dynamics of Dinosaurs and other extinct giants. Columbia Univ Press. NY Alexander, R. McN (1998) Size and Scaling (in) Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs (eds Currie & Padian), Academic Press, 665-668. Paul, GS (1997) Dinosaur Models: The Good, the Bad and using them to estimate the mass of dinosaurs. Dinofest 1997: 129-154. Peczkis, J (1994) Implications of body-mass estimates for dinosaurs, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 14(4):520-533 Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Thu, May 26 2005, 3:33am  My source indicate 4 tons for a 12 m suchomimus, so the calcul indicate 13 tons for a 18 m spinosaurus. Even if you limite that weight to 10 tons, that would make a very large animal, larger than the majority or all of the theropodes. There are accounts of remains of a 2,40 m spinosaur skull found in North Africa in 2000. And a spinosaur with that skull would be 17-18 m. Even the skeleton found by the Germans in 1915 was 17,40 m long but Prof.Stromer indicate it was a subadult. That's the reason which indicate to Jack Horner that the largest Spinosaurus would have been almost 20 m in lenght and probably 15 tons in weight. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Thu, May 26 2005, 5:03am  T-rex is said to have a weight of about 6 tons for a 12m specimen, what sounds really possible. A heavier built 12m crocodile was about 8tons. A 10m T-rex would still have a weight of about 3,5 tons, and T-rex wasn´t 3 times heavier than an allosaurus of the same lenght. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ozraptor4 posted Thu, May 26 2005, 5:52am  >T-rex is said to have a weight of about 6 tons for a 12m specimen, what sounds really possible. A heavier built 12m crocodile was about 8tons. A 10m T-rex would still have a weight of about 3,5 tons, and T-rex wasn´t 3 times heavier than an allosaurus of the same lenght. Why not? Allosaurus is a very gracile theropod and T.rex is one of the most robust of theropods - you'd expect the allosaur to be much much lighter. A supergracile 25m long Diplodocus (c12 tons) is about 1/3 the mass of a super-robust 25m long Brachiosaur (c30 tons) - (based on Paul 1997). Or if you want a real life example of mass-discrepancy, take a look at living artiodactyl mammals, forget fossil estimates - these are creatures you can put on the scales. All the following animals have a head&body length of about 2 metres (between 1.8-2.2m) - here are the weights for adult males taken from the Macdonald Encyclopedia of Mammals and other sources.- Guanaco - 70kg Topi - 159kg Fallow deer - 200kg Wildebeest - 275kg Caribou - 320kg Takin - 350kg A robust Asiatic 2m long artiodactyl (Takin - Budorcas taxicolor) is 5 times the weight of a gracile South American 2m long artiodactyl (Guanaco - Lama guanicoe). This shows that basic body dimensions (length, height etc) are useless as indicators of weight. Cheers O4 Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Thu, May 26 2005, 6:19am  In conclusion, I would say that Spinosaurus had the longest reach, the biggest teeth (some found in North Africa are 32 cm), the most powerful arms. T-rex had the most powerful bite of all and the biggest brain. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Thu, May 26 2005, 1:47pm  Speaking of teeth size, counting the roots, there are numerous examples of T. rex teeth that are at least 30 cm long. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ozraptor4 posted Thu, May 26 2005, 10:00pm  >In conclusion, I would say that Spinosaurus had the longest reach, the biggest teeth (some found in North Africa are 32 cm), the most powerful arms. Spino's mouth is like that of a gharial - narrow elongated jaws, terminal "rosettes" of teeth and long conical teeth that lacked serrations - great for catching slippery fish but not so great for slicing or crunching. If JP3 was being true to life, when spino grabs rex's neck and tried to twist, he would have either snapped off his teeth or broken his jaw. (thats assuming its neck wasn't crushed in the rex's initial attack...) Horner aside, the weight of evidence is against Spino being a big-game predator (available as pdfs) - Buffetaut & Ouaja (2002) A new specimen of Spinosaurus from the lower Cretaceous of Tunisia, with remarks of the evolutionary history of the Spinosauridae. Bull. Soc. Geol. France 173(5) 415-421 Holtz, TR (1998) Spinosaurs as Crocodile Mimics. Science 282. 1276-1277 Sereno et al (1998) A long snouted Predatory Dinosaur from Africa and the Evolution of the Spinosaurids. Science 282. 1298-1302 That being said, considering it had to contend with giant predators like Carcharodontosaurus & Bahariasaurus on a daily basis (plus the odd angry bull Paralititan), I'm sure Spino was no pushover and could have probably at least driven off the rex in the JP3 duel by sheer size-related intimidation - just NOT by snapping its neck. I guess it depends as to whether this thread is out to find the most powerful predator (as in which animal is best at taking down the most impressive prey) or the most powerful duellist... Cheers O4 Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Fri, May 27 2005, 7:42am  Spinosaurus had undoubtly eat fish, very big fish (3-4 m river's coelacanthes) but it was also a 10 tons superpredator. His jaws weren't like those of a gharial, it's not a suchomimus ! Either sarcosuchus also had a bit thin jaws but his bite power is estimate to 8 tons. I don't say that spinosaurus had the same power in a bite but with his great size, his monstrous arms, his big teeth, and his probably high speed, it could surely kill a large land prey. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Fri, May 27 2005, 7:55am  The jaws of sarcosuchus were narrow on the snout, but powerfull too, and the jaw-muscles were very strong, whereas the whole head of spinosaurus was very narrow, and much weaker than a crocodile-skull. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Fri, May 27 2005, 8:29am  Either, Spinosaurus had a powerful jaw, and mighty arms, great size and power. It could be the most powerful of the terrestrial predators, like the Kodiak or the polar bear are today. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Sun, May 29 2005, 3:26pm  Have you been listening? Spinosaurus would have weighed about 4000 kg. That comes out to about 4.4 tons. Not 10. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Sun, May 29 2005, 5:11pm  No 10 tons, this is sure. Suchomimus was 4 tons. a 17 m spino was 8 to 10 tons. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Mon, May 30 2005, 1:21pm  So you're ignoring the actual paleontologist who pointed out that you were wrong, and continue to spew out your unsupported, and horrifically incorrect assertions? You aren't debating in good faith, kid. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Mon, May 30 2005, 5:10pm  I'm very very in the knowledge, man. Abd Im' sure what I'm saying. I've contacted paleontologists and read ten, even hundred of paleontology books. Well, I'm sure : Spinosaurus, at 17 m, wasn't 4 tons, which is totally ridiculous, but over than 8 tons. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Tue, May 31 2005, 1:53pm  Well, continue to believe what you want. Just remember that everyone in the paleontological community, except Horner, contradicts what you say. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Tue, May 31 2005, 2:15pm  No. other paleontologists like Thomas Holtz are agreed with Horner. YOU can believe what you want. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Tue, May 31 2005, 3:46pm  The 5m long Eurestospondylus in WWD was said to be around 500kg, about the mass of a cow, what seems very probable to me. A 10m long Allosaurus would have a weight of about 4tons, and a suchomimus of about 10m would have a similar weight. Giant theropods like spinosaurus had undoubtable an immensive weight. The T-rex was about 6tons in weight, for 12m in length. Even if a spinosaurus was not as heavy built as a T-rex, it would be impressive too. If a 5m long spinosaurus would be very light and have a weight of only 250kg (about the weight of three adult humans) a 15m specimen would still be around 6750kg. A 17m spinosaurus would have an impressive weight of about 9,8tons. An ostrich weighs about 90kg when it is ready to be killed for its flesh. I´m sure most of you have already seen an ostrich alive, and this creatures are much lighter built than theropods. A 5m long Spinosaurus with its long tail, the strong neck and the massive legs would probably be heavier than only 250kg. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Cthulhu posted Wed, Jun 1 2005, 1:02pm  And you, you aren't listening to the actual paleontologist who pointed out how wrong you were. Yet you continue to spout the same factually incorrect statements. What's wrong with this picture. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Sordes posted Thu, Jun 2 2005, 12:43pm  I´ve seen several statements about the weight of extinct animals, which are undoubtless wrong. I made calculations and comparisons with other animals. There is a minimum weight an animal must have. Look on the ostrich. If the ostrich had a tail, it would be around 3m in length. A 10m long and 2 tons heavy spinosaurus would have a weight of only 54kg, only a little bit more of the half weight an ostrich has. And you can´t tell me that an ostrich is heavier built than a spinosaurus. Subject: Re: Most powerful predator that ever lived From: Ted posted Fri, Jun 3 2005, 11:35am  Exactly. So I'm right, a 18 m spino would be 10 tons. If it was 4 tons, it wouldn't be an animal but a skeleton...

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