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Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 9:10am  But Richard Forrest has used that technic for estimate the weight of the pliosaurs and his conclusion is 21 tons for a 20 m pliosaur,so where is the mistake ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 10:09am  Hmmm, I really don´t know it. At oceansofkansas is a stated weight of 1100kg for a 9m Mosaur, which seems much too less, even when mosasaurs were a bit slender than most crocodiles. I can´t hardly imagine that a 9m mosasaur should weigh as much as 6m crocodile, a minimum of 2tons for a very slender mosausaur seems much more plausible. Perhaps Richard Forrest should use the formula technique too, because it is absolutley right. Normally a cube of meat with 10cm lenght weighs 1 kg. I could imagine that the modells were not correct and not massive enough. With my estimated weight of minimum 400kg(a male steller´s sealion of 2,5 weighs even about 500kg) for a 4m Pliosaur the weigth would be 50tons for 20m pliosaur. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 10:17am  The states of Forrest seems very incorrcet, I´ve calculated that a 4m long Pliosaur with the mass/lenght-relation of Forrest would weigh only 168kg! That seems even too less for an Elsamosaur of this lenght. 168kg is about the weight of two adult men, or one 2m long male sea-lion, now imagine a pliosaur of 4m with only 168kg. Unbelievable. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 10:10am  Do you know if the calcul and the model indicate the same results ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Lovecraft posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 10:42am  21 tons for a 20 meter pliosaur is a phenomenally low figure, I'll show you why. As Sordes said earlier, aquatic animals are around the same density as water. 1 meter cubed weighs 1 metric tonne, so weight increases remarkably quickly. To demonstrate how small that is for a 20 meter animal, I will try and calculate the width of a cylinder the same length. It's not the best impression of the animal, but it shows you how little area that kind of mass takes up when spread to 20 meters. So, I'll need to find the radius: 21m^3 = 3.14 X r^2 X 20m 1.05 = 3.14 X r^2 .3344 = r^2 .5783 = r So the radius is .578 meters, and the diameter is therefore about 1.15 meters. Even if the density is less than water, that's still tiny. The 20 meter pliosaur would have to be very snake-like to fit that bill. Here's how a more reasonably sized pliosaur for comparison, 20 meters and 75 tonnes. 75m^3 = 3.14 X r^2 X 20m 3.75 = 3.14 X r^2 1.194 = r^2 1.093 = r So a 75 tonner would have a diameter of about 2.185 meters. If you cut out area from the tail and neck and stick it onto the body, you could create a concievable pliosaur with that much area. Richard Forrest is clearly wrong in that case, he probably suffered from some sort of conversion error. And my years of reading Stephen King novels have taught me never to trust anyone with the initials R.F. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 10:56am  I'me agree with you but it was just a reason to mention that... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 11:12am  Still curious how Forrest came to such abstruse results. I mean, it is just ridiculous, 21 tons for a 20m long and not snake-like animal, I can´t imagine why he didn´t recogniced it. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 11:17am  I am curious to know what those people how said "marine reptiles can´t get more than 100tons" will say about this results. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 11:33am  And Forrest estimate for a 23m long metashastasaurus a weight around 30 tons. Yes it's truly surprising coming from a paleontologist. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 4:16pm  I've calculated how big could be a 20 m long anaconda and the result is 24 tons, so yes this figure is just f...king ridiculous... Well, a 20 m long Pliosaur would be something between 50 and 65 tons, equivalent of a large sperm whale. The men I know who defends the sperm whale saying about him "it's bigger than an pliosaur because it has fat" are a little stupid. Even if pliosaur didn't have many fat, like Sordes said, there were very compact and bulkier, with a osseous armor on the belly, a very short and thick neck and very massive flippers and head. Now, I'm awaiting the reports about Metashastasaurus for be sure if that was a superpredator like I think. His shape indicate that. I will not surprised if it ate other large ichthyosaurs. If the largest sea creatures of the jurassic were very large predatory pliosaurs, why not a gigantic more primitve ichthyosaur for the triassic... Well, if we're sure there were 30 m long specimen, is it realistic to think these specimen were over than 150 tons, based on size of cymbospondylus or shastasaurus ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 4:23pm  Other thing, in Sea Monsters BBC I think they wanted more represents the 18 m long "Liopleurodon" specimen of the London Museum instead of the Megapliosaur of WWD, even if on the site they describs yet the creature at 25 m long. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 6 2005, 4:48pm  About 150tons seems very realistic for a 30m metashastasaurus, it is dependent how it was built, a 30m long crocodile with the proportions of yai would weigh about 137tons, but if metashastasaurus was heavier built than a crocodile, even a weight of nearly 190 tons seems not unrealistic, even more than 200 tons could be plausible for a large specimen. I think even the giant metashastasaurus preyed mostly on smaller animals like fish, squid and ammonites, but they ate surely smaller marine reptiles too. There is a very well preserved specimen of a 9m long primitive Ichthyosaur(can´t remember the name) which had half-digested remains of a small ichthyosaur in his belly. But I think Ichthyosaurs were lesser adapted in catching large prey than pliosaurs and mosasaurs, which were probably able to kill and eat even prey half their own size. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 7 2005, 9:17am  Of course it ate smaller reptiles, it was larger than any other creature in the world. In my opinion his shape indicate a macropredator, his jaws aren't narrow like the shonisaur jaws. I don't have any renseignements about his teeth. If the new report indicate it was just a predator eating small creatures, no large reptiles, I'd agree for saying that Megapliosaur was the largest and porbably most powerful predator that ever lived. But Metashastasaurus was an ambush predator and I don't know any ambush predator preying smaller prey. The sperm whale use his sonar for catch small fish or squid, and it use the ambush technic for kill a large prey like a giant, colossal squid, Megamouth or basking shark. For the moment, it's what I think, as the reports comes, I'll tell you my definitive opinion. If it was like his model and was 30 m long (even probably longer...) I'll give it a minimal weight of 100 tons... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 7 2005, 9:56am  Pliosaurs killed prey almost their size (a 20 m leedsichtys for a 25 Liopleurodon) Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Thu, Apr 7 2005, 12:08pm  If leedsichthys was really 20m long...But they killed smaller specimens of their own kind. The large ichthyosaur leptopterygius is often compared with an orca, cause of its strong jaws and and bulky shape. But in fact there is only one fossil with the remains of a small ichthyosaur, all other fossils had only hooks and beaks of squid in their belly, even fish seemed to lack. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 7 2005, 12:19pm  We'll see for Metashastasaurus. I think jus his shape doesn't belong to an slow animal http://www.rolexawards.com/special-feature/secrets/nicholls-summary.html The drawing gives a good idea of the aspect of the creature. It's not like Shonisaurus. David Martill said me also that beast was probably a superpredator, eating large other things, being bigger than all the other creatures. But I'll be sure when I'll have new informations about that. It's just a good contender for Liopleurodon as the title "mightiest predator ever"... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Fri, Apr 8 2005, 6:29am  The eating habits of Metashastasaurus : "The eating habits of these giants remain mysterious. Members of the newly found species swam with an undulatory motion and presumably were too slow to pursue prey, says Nicholls. However, the shape of the long, slender, toothless snout suggests the animal wasn't a filter feeder either. Such a filtering configuration couldn't process enough seawater to nourish the bulky beast. She suggests that the ichthyosaur was an ambush predator, lunging at its meals as they swam past. Because the scientists haven't yet exposed the creature's body, they don't know if its last meal has been preserved. Whatever—and however—the ichthyosaur ate, Nicholls says, it likely was the largest predator that ever lived. " Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Fri, Apr 8 2005, 12:26pm  A question : in your opinion, how many long could have been the largest pliosaurs ? We know the size around 25 m but there is no evidence indicating larger specimen ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Fri, Apr 8 2005, 1:11pm  I know leptopterygius under then call Temnodontosaurus. Large and fast, it was a really active predator. So was Cymbospondylus, even more primitive. Metashastasaurus have not the characters of a predator eating mostly little creatures. His jaws are massive, not narrow like the others ichthyosaurs, his form is more like Cymbospondylus than Shonisaurus, which have a big belly. I think that Meta was a "pre-pliosaur". Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Fri, Apr 8 2005, 3:00pm  If the killer of the aramberri-monster was no oversized freak but a specimen of average or only a bit over average-size specimen, there were definitivly larger specimens. If the snout of megashastasaurus was long, slender and toothless it is nearly sure it was a high-developed squid-eater. It shows similar adaptions like beaked whales with their long jaws and their lack of teeth for the hunt. It seems that most ichthyosaurs were mainly squid-eater, they didn´t eat ammonites and belemites and there are only two indications for leptopterygious that some of them eat small marine reptiles too, even fish was no common prey, the stomachs of ichthyosaurs are in fact often full of chitinous hooks and beaks of shell-less squid. It is really hard to imagine that the toothless metashastasaurus feed mainly on large prey. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Fri, Apr 8 2005, 4:41pm  I'm not sure it was toothless. And even, I can't think a so big predator would have preyed only small squids. Even paleontologists thinks it ate large reptiles, even if there is not many info about it jaws. His simple size indicate a macropredator. I've interrogated many people showing the Metashastasaurus model, all said me they thinked it was a superpredator carnivore. Temnodontosaurus wans't the only species preying larger prey, cymbospondylus was too a large superpredatr, eating fish but also many marine reptiles and Metashastasaurus looks like to Cymbospondylus. I guess you, his snout apprently toothless ( maybe his teeth are isolated) is strange but I can't believe a so huge animal, with a long shape, preyed just small squids. Maybe I'm wrong but for the moment that's all what I can say. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 7:28am  But why can´t you imagine, the giant beaked whales like the 12m Baird´s beaked whale feed nearly on small squid and even the largest sperm-whales mainly in small squid. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 8:51am  I know about the beaked whales and sperm whale but I don't think that Meta was like that. I've tell you, maybe I'm wrong but I'm not convince by his shape it's a predator of small creatures. We'll see that. My question is did a pliosaur could have been bigger than this species ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 1:48pm  If metshastasaurus was as slender as cymospondylus shown in the BBC-Documentation, a 25m Pliosaurus was probably as heavy or even heavier than a 30m Metashastasaurus. It seems that many ichthyosaurs were high-developed squid-eaters, like the sperm-whale and beaked whales. Especially the toothless jaws indicate a specialisation for squid. Fisheaters have often many needle-like teeth, like freshwater-dolphins, squid-eaters like beaked-whales and sperm-whales have no teeth for grabbing prey, they suck squid like a vacuum-cleaner. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 2:30pm  Have you any proof that Metashastasaurus was toothless ? Except the agressor of the Monster of Aramberri and the probability it was a juvenile, do you know other proof that 25 m or longer pliosaurs have existed ? Do you know how big would have been the teeth of such large predator ? I believe, regarding the image I've seen of Metashastasaurus, it was not as slender as cymbospondylus. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 2:56pm  If metashastasaurus was bulkier, it was probably heavier than a pliosaurus. I have no proof that metashastasaurus was toothless, it was you who wrote that. But the life-sized image of the giant ichthyosaur at oceansofkansas shows it with very small tiny teeth. Some ichthyosaurs lost their teeth when they aged, similar to some modern animals which don´t really need their teeth. The teeth of liopleurodon were unusual large, even in comparison to the rest of the head, the teeth of the aramberri-monster´s killer were monstrous. I´ve seen a documentation about it, and the discoverers of the fossil showed the part with the biting marks, the teeth which were responsible for that holes in the bones were as big as human forearms. By the way, can you tell me where I can see images of metashastasaurus? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 3:16pm  Image of Meta, here : http://www.rolexawards.com/special-feature/secrets/nicholls-summary.html Giv eme comments. I have also an image showing by comparaison a 25 m pliosaurus, a 22 m sperm whale, the 18 m monster of aramberri, a 16 m megalodon and a 10 m orca. http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/5e6e9d9b/bc/ezboardfiles/Image3.jpg?bfmuDWCB 4WcBiSYI Doyou know Steve Alten ? The author who wrote the novel MEG about a Carcharodon Megalodon surviving at our epoch. I've given him some informatiosn about marine reptiles. For treat he promises me I'll be a character in his next novels...Just funny. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 4:53pm  http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/5e6e9d9b/bc/ezboardfiles/Image3.jpg?bfqQFWCBs5LKiSY I Thisis the good link for my image, thoe other is wrong. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, Apr 9 2005, 5:53pm  Sordes, on other topic, you indicated this adress saying it was a representation of metashastasaurus http://www.oceansofkansas.com/Ichthyosaur/shonipic.jpg but this is just a 15 m shonisaurus with jaws as large as a human. Metashastasaurus skelton is 23 m long with 6 m skull, it would be larger than this. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sun, Apr 10 2005, 6:20am  Here´s again a picture with the comparison of several aquatic superpredators I´ve made: http://www.kryptozoologie-online.de/Forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=120 Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sun, Apr 10 2005, 6:16am  10m seems too long for an orca, this would be a freaksih specimen. The skull of the metashastasaurus looks indead very similar to those of beaked whales, the illustration beyond the picture looks not very similar to skull of the fossil. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sun, Apr 10 2005, 6:53am  Thanks for the links. Where have you seen the skull of the ichthyosaur was similar to beaked whales. I believed the illustration was correct, showing how would have been the creature. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sun, Apr 10 2005, 7:20am  Your image is interesting but you've represented the ichthyosaur more like an ophtalmosaurus than it is represented on the link I've given you. But you draw is great. If the scientist discovering the fossil represent Metashastasaurus like that, I think they're just. Well, if Metashastasaurus was like it's shown on the image of the website, what do you think about his diet and power ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sun, Apr 10 2005, 9:15am  Sorry, I´v mixed up the shonisaurus-reconstruction with the 23m-long specimen from Canada,mentioned in the same text. Here is a link about the BBC-Documantation about the giant ichthyosaur in Canada: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/21/0,1872,2030901,FF.html The picture of the head shows a very narrow snout, and the text says there were no teeth in the mouth. There were isolated teeth found near the fossil, but they didn´t belong to the ichthyosaur. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sun, Apr 10 2005, 4:12pm  Only the extremity of the snout seems narrow. It's true it's strange there is no teeth in the jaws that means nothing. Lot of skeletons of marien reptiles have no teeth, even the skeleton Monster of aramberri have no teeth. But for the moment, having no other informations about that creature and his diet, I think we should considerate the Megapliosaurs like the largest and mightiest predator that ever lived, because considering the specimen of Mexico was maybe a juvenile (some paleontologists I've consultates said me it wasn't...) and it was killed by a far larger predator, I think these species were 25 to 30 m long and 100-130 tons. But remember, don't forget that giant ichthyosaur, it's a good contender. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Mon, Apr 11 2005, 6:02am  Hey Sordes, do know the lenght of the sjull of a 25 m Lip ? Because estimations are often discussed... And does the german scientist have estimated that predator could have been 30 m in lenght ? Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Mon, Apr 11 2005, 6:13am  The german scientists from the university estimated a lenght of about 25m for the killer of the aramberri-monster. I´ll visit the paleonthological museum in Tübingen in two days, there are two very famous pliosaurs exhibited, one of them is a Liopleurodon. There are some pictures of this skeletons in the album of www.kryptozoologie-online.de in the section "sonstiges" on page 3. The skull of the liopleurodon was about 22% of the whole lenght, perhaps a bit longer, perhaps a bit shorter, but the skull of a 25m Liopleurodon had a minimum length of 5m. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Mon, Apr 11 2005, 6:31am  I´ve looked in a book about extinct marine reptiles, especially about those which are exhibited in Tübingen. The reconstruction of the liopleurodon shows more a head-lenght of 25%, which would mean that a 25m Liopleurodon had a head of more than 6m. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Mon, Apr 11 2005, 6:37am  But was the Aramberri Monster a Lip ? The accounts aren't the same. Finally this beast would be the mightiest predator of all time, right ? Last time, you indicate a 25 m Lip would have teth as long as a forearm but I've seen that the teeth of the 20 m pliosaur which we have a skull in England had teeth about 40 cm. So a 25 Meg-pliosaur could have larger teeth... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Mon, Apr 11 2005, 8:20am  I meant a forearm with a strechted hand. I don´t think the aramberri-monster or its killer were in fact members of the species liopleurodon ferox, but a similar species. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Tue, Apr 12 2005, 7:51am  Look at this spanish site http://marenostrum.org/paleontologia/liopleurodon/ Estimating the weight of the aramberri-monstre at 25-30 tons, they indicate a 50 tonner 25 m long pliosaur. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: whalefan posted Fri, May 20 2005, 10:08am  yeah, that looks pretty much true, 25 meters, 50 tons, 150 tons for this reptile is impossible exageration, onle very few scientists think that it could reach that big, most of the scientists think that it would never get that big, most think that it's weight was much lower. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, May 21 2005, 2:44pm  From a 12 m long, 10 tons Megalneusaurus we have a 90 tons, 25 m specimen. 90-100 tons is very ACCURATE for a 25 m pliosaur. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sat, May 21 2005, 6:14pm  In fact it is even to light, a 25m pliosaur had an absolut minimum weight of 100 tons, and it is very probable they were even heavier. A little calculation again: An estimated weight of 600kg for a 4m specimen would mean that a 24m specimen would be 216 times heavier and 600kg x 216 are nearly 130 tons. Again I can calculate back the weight for a 4m specimen if a 25m specimen was (it wasn´t) only 50 tons heavy. A 4m long pliosaur with this proportions would only weigh 231kg. Now look how much flesh 231 pounds are, that´s about the weight of an adult hog of 2m. This weight is really riduculous for a 4m long compact built pliosaur. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, May 21 2005, 7:02pm  Agreed. Now it's time to see if there were really 30 m sperm whales. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Mon, Apr 11 2005, 6:43am  Other thing : some scientist estimate that the Monstre of aramberri wasn't a juvenile, just an adult with paedomorphic, juvenile character into the adulthood...In every case, the 40 cm wounds on the skull indicate yet a 25 m predator... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 13 2005, 7:04am  I was in the Paleonthological Museum in Tübingen today, to take a further look on the marine reptiles. The exhibited Liopleurdon is in fact a bit larger, perhaps somewhere between 4m and 4,5m, and much more massive I did remember. The minimum weight of this guy was not 400 kg, 600kg as an absolut minimum weight seems much more realistic, even 800-1000kg are probable. The thorax alone is allready huge, bigger than those of a buffalo. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 13 2005, 11:01am  So, if a 4,5 m Liopleurodon is around 800 kg, how big would be, in your opinion, the 25 m specimen ? This page http://marenostrum.org/paleontologia/liopleurodon/ indicate a weight around 50 tons for a 25 m pliosaur, based on the 25-30 tons Monster of aramberi. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Wed, Apr 13 2005, 12:04pm  The guys on this page can´t calculate, just try to imagine a 25m-pliosaur with only 50 tons, it would look like a snake. I´ve calculated now with 4,5m and 800 kg, with a result of 137 tons for a 25m Liopleurodon, what seems very probable to me. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 13 2005, 12:20pm  Cool. In fact, I think a full grown mega-pliosaur was heavier than a full grown metashastasaurus because what I've seen indicates a ichthyosaur really large but actually a little fin for his lenght. Like you said, pliosaurs are truly massive predators, with heavy bones and a big armor on the belly. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Wed, Apr 13 2005, 12:35pm  I've seen somewhere that the teeth of the monster of aramberri were 25 cm long. According that the wound in his skull seems indicate 40 cm teeth long for the killer, I've calculated, if the lenght of the pliosaur was porportionnal to the lenght of the teeth, that the predator could have been around 28-29 m long. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 2:45am  That is dependend from the true lenght of the aramberri-monster, if it was 15 or 18m long. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 5:56am  Most of the source indicate 18 m, other are 15 m or 19-20 m. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 8:16am  Here some informations from the paleontologist Richard Forrest "Hi The biggest marine reptile ever is, as you suggest, the new ichthyosaur. One can't estimate size from isolated teeth - there are small animals with big teeth, and big animals with small teeth. I have my doubts on 20 m pliosaurs. Much of our knowledge of these animals comes from a small number of rather incomplete specimens and scaling up from odd isolated elements is potentially very unreliable. The skeletal mount of Kronosaurus in Harvard was based on a partial skeleton, and subsequent more complete finds have shown that Kronosaurus was around 13m long, not 18 m as is the mount. I did my calculations for the weight using a small model of a pliosaur, and measuring the displacement. This depends on the acuracy of the model - something of which I am unsure - and any such estimates have to be treated cautiously. It's worth noting that we have little reliable information on the weight of modern whales: you can't put a blue whale onto a set of scales to weigh it, and such estimates as exist are based on the weights of dismembered caracases from whaling days, with guesses as to the weight of blood." Daavid Martill about Metashastsaurus. "I agree with the conclusions of Nicholls, that it was an ambush predator. I suspect it ate a lot of fish and squid. There was nothing larger than this animal, and with a 5 m long skull, its mouth was pretty massive. It certainly was larger than any contemporary sauropterygians that I know about, so I guess we must presume it was th top of the food chain. Even if it was not taking the largest of prey, I fail to see what could botther it." Martill about the aramberri monster "How big do you think it was? It does not matter what we think its size was. The important question is:- Is there a way in which we can determined its length that is realiable? The term juvenil is very vague. Is it a young juvenile, in which case it may have hgada lot more length to put on, or was it a late juvenile, and therfor nearly fully grown. My gut feeling is that at 18 m it probably did not have much more to grow. But, and there is always a but... suppose the animal diud not have determinate growth. This would mean that the longer it lived, the bigger it grew. So its length is determined by how luck it is to stay alive" Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 11:46am  Something about the title "end of the food-chain": The biggest living predator(expect baleen whales) ist the sperm whale, whose food consists mainly of small to medium, and sometimes even giant squid and fish which appears in larger numbers. But the much smaller Orca kills much larger prey, seals, big sharks(even basking sharks) and whales. In fact the orca is the top-predator of modern seas, together with the great white(which is sometimes only prey for orcas). And the sperm-whale? It is one of several ends of the marine food-chain, no animal feed on adult sperm-whales, but I would say that it is lower in the hyrachy of the whole food-chain. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 1:18pm  It seems reasonnable to expect the new reports about that creature, just for sure. We'll see. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 4:37pm  Sordes, I think have read some articles indicating that the monster of aramberri hasn't no teeth either. Some fossil of plesiosaurs and pliosaurs have no teeth because the erosion have destroy it or something else did it. Maybe it was the same thing for that Metashastasaurus... On the page you've given me, his snout is not as narrow as you said. The extremity is narrow but not really the whole jaws. They're even very large at the base. And the image I've shown you on the page in english was a detailled reconstitution of the creature by the discoverers. I think we should wait other info about that, for finally say what was the most powerful and fearsome of the marine reptiles. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Thu, Apr 14 2005, 6:03pm  It is very uncommon that teeth vanish before the bones, and teeth were found near the metashasta-fossil, but they didn´t belonged to it. Liopleurodon´s teeth were extremeous huge, even in comparison to the whole lenght of the creature. In fact I don´t know any other creature with so much giant teeth in the mouth. Just look at this picture I´ve made: http://www.kryptozoologie-online.de/Forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=42 Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Fri, Apr 15 2005, 2:29am  Yeah, its teeth are truly impressive and massive. But if the jurassic oceans were raomed by 100 tons pliosaur, why these titanic creatures were of that size ? Even their largest prey were far smaller... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Fri, Apr 15 2005, 4:46am  It seems that Pliosaurs ate large prey, like marine reptiles, but they were still much smaller than themselves. There are several skeletons of ichthosaur and cryptoclydus found in England, which showed bite-marks from Pliosaurs, some of them were even really biten in two halfes like shown in WWD. Giant Liopleurodons were probably more similar to white sharks, they did eat smaller prey like fish or squid when they could get it, but they were mainly adapted to overcome even large prey. Modern white sharks need, compared to their size, very few food, even a large female eats only a handfull of seals per year. Pliosaurs seemed to be ambush hunters which stalked their prey from the deep(similar to the way GWs do), and when they came to waters where periodically many marine reptiles lived, they were able to eat as much as they wanted. Cause of their size they lived probably in deeper waters as modern white sharks when they patrol near seal-colonies. Giant Pliosaurs were surely formidable hunters, whith nostrils much larger than those of any other animal. Their four flippers made them highly maneuvrable, similar to dragonflies, and their enormous size gave them the possibility to attain high speeds. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Fri, Apr 15 2005, 5:53am  Good. Look at this. this is the opening of the next novel of Steve Alten. "A scientific expedition over the Philippine Sea Plate. The area is a paleobiologist's goldmine. At least four major submarine canyons feed nutrients into this valley, creating a habitat that has sustained primitive life since the very first marine reptiles returned to the sea over a hundred million years ago. Prehistoric sponges with immune systems that could potentially cure cancer. Jawless fishes with bony armor plating. Undiscovered ray-finned life forms. Ichthyosaurs and Pliosaurs possessing gills, giant sea turtles with teeth that could tear open a small truck. On-board the surface ship is DAVID TAYLOR, age 17. The young scientist and his team have been using robotic cameras, following SCARFACE, the male Meg from Primal Waters (Angel's surviving pup). They continue tracking the Meg...not realizing the shark is being stalked by an even larger creature! The monster is LIOPLEURODON, and at 120 feet and 100 tons, it's the biggest predator ever to have lived. Scarface is no match for the beast. The juvenile male tries to escape to the surface, but Liopleurodon follows. The attack continues topside, the research vessel in the middle of the battle. David lowers the ship's bathyscape to the surface to record the underwater scenes. Liopleurodon latches onto Scarface's tail, biting it in half. The mortally wounded Megalodon smashes the side of the ship. The bathyscape's cable snaps, releasing the heavy titanium vessel. It sinks, David trapped inside. The Liopleurodon follows it down. Meanwhile...Jonas is in Monterey, training Angel in the Tanaka Lagoon. The 76-foot female Megalodon has been taught to retrieve objects. Jonas receives the news...his son is trapped in a bathyscape, nearly five miles down. He has no food, a limited supply of water, and only enough oxygen to last the week! Jonas has no choice. He must use Angel to retrieve the bathyscape. He will lead her down in an Abyss Glider, where the biggest monster of all time awaits..." Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Sat, Apr 16 2005, 6:53am  This Liopleurodon would look really strange, imagine a 12 feet Lioleurodon with a weight of only 100kg... Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: whalefan posted Wed, May 18 2005, 8:37pm  I am sure that real size of pliosaur is not 120, and it never was, Why, simply because scientists can and do mistakes and a lot, do you know that the largest megalodon is 30 tons and 50 feet, why not 100 feet like early reports from scientists? Because scientists estimated it's weight at 57 tons at first, but then they agreed that it's maximum is only 30 tons and max length is 50 feet, same thing with pliosaur, no pliosaur ever reached 100 tons, sperm whales did, as some russian scientists mention 100 tons huge veruy old males, they had 5 m jaws and were 25-30 meters long, yes that is the kind of sperm whales who inhabited the earth in 18-19 century, even scientists are agree that modern sperm whales are small, whalers say the same thing, and one more interesting fact, 100 tons old males reached 100 tons and had 5 mjaws, and in Benford museum there was 7 meters sperm whale jaw, think about it, this male was over 28 meters according to what whalers say, I think this male was the largest meat eater to ever inhabit the earth Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Sordes posted Fri, May 20 2005, 10:04am  The Monster of Aramberri was about 18m long, and was killed by another pliosaur of about 25m, and jaws which were found in England idicate a further specimen of about 20. A normal spermwhale is about 16m long, females about 12m, still smaller than the aramberri youngster. As we´ve already debated and calculated, a pliosaur of 25m would have a minimum weight of 100ton, although 150 is much more probable, and this is three times the weight of a large male spermwhale. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: whalefan posted Fri, May 20 2005, 10:13am  100 tons is impossible for LIOPLEURODON, it is simply an exageration, the guy who read the book is not a scientist I think, most scientists think it's weight was much lower than this, and 120 tons is of course exageration for this guy, look at how it's body is built, it is slim, with long flukles and tail, how could it reach 120 tons if some whales with thik big body reach less, it is ridiculous. Subject: Re: What real size for the largest pliosaur ? From: Ted posted Sat, May 21 2005, 2:48pm  Whalefan, plisoaurs aren't slim, it's you who's exagerates on that point. Liopleurodon is near to be as heavy as a sperm whale of the same lenght. Okay, there were maybe 100 tons or more sperm whales in the ancient times but be sure that Sordes and I are very sure of the accurate of our calculs.

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