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Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Thu, Sep 10 2009, 9:27pm  True, Goon, but the Maine Muttant was a chow mix. The former owners later came forward with photos of the dog when it was living that left little doubt as to its identity. Apparently they had moved out of state and left the dog with someone who either abandoned it or just neglected it and let it run loose, and it was hit by a vehicle and killed. The photos that went viral, of the dead dog, were shot from an angle that caused its head to appear very foreshortened and that made it look weird. I have had both wolves and wolf/dogs, and also a coydog. Bob, my coydog, was one of the smartest dogs I have ever known. He was blessed with a good nature, too, although a bit shy and stand-offish with strangers. I did have to watch him carefully around small children. He never hurt one or even tried to, but his mannerisms when around younguns had a definitely predatory aspect. I have known several wolf hybrids, and I had always heard that they are apt to become predatory as they mature. I used to not believe that. But then I raised a litter of them myself (the owner was a real prince of a guy who was going to drown the puppies because his wolf escaped and mated with a dog not of his choice). It was an experience that I will never repeat, but I am glad I did it, because it opened my eyes to the truth about wolf hybrids. Wolfdogs are risky, even if you are their "alpha". They are always looking for chinks in the alpha's armor, and they will take advantage of any opportunity or perceived weakness. And I don't care what anyone says, or how many examples to the contrary that people put forth, I maintain that wolf hybrids are downright dangerous to have around children. The exceptions do not negate the rule. But I digress. There is at least one breed of dog, the Catahoula Leopard Cur, that was supposedly developed in part from red wolves. And there are several pariah-type feral dogs in the US, most notably the Carolina Shell Heap dog, which may or may not be of ancient origin (I doubt they are really very ancient). Not to mention the thousands of feral dogs of more recent vintage, such as those that recently killed the Georgia couple. There were no coyotes in the eastern US until just a few decades ago, but there were wolves, both red wolves and the more familiar gray wolves. Coyotes were actually introduced into the southeast at least a couple of times, by "sportsmen" who kept them in very large multi-acre enclosures and coursed them with hounds. Some of them released the coyotes into the wild after a few others were busted for animal cruelty and illegally transporting wildlife across state lines. Other coyotes have been dispersing eastward during the last century, after the near extermination of red and gray wolves in the east. Coyotes did hybridize with red wolves, especially in the extreme western part of the wolves' range. But the wolves were here long before the coyotes. If I was not so lazy this evening I would scan and upload a photo from a book I have from circa 1970, of a black-phase red wolf. Maybe I will this weekend; today has just been too long. Anyhow, the black phase animal looks much less coyote-like than the "red" (really an agouti color with a rufous base). Also, the few photos of black phase red wolves that I have ever seen, were much more thoroughly black than are black-phase gray wolves, which almost always have some silvery gray markings or shadings. For these and other reasons, I believe that red wolves are a separate species. But the term "species" is a term for human convenience anyway. The animals don't know or care whether they are species, subspecies, or hybrids. They just are. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: badger man posted Sat, Sep 12 2009, 8:48pm  This debate could be very important to the animals. If the red wolf is proved to be a hybrid or subspecies the government could take away its protection to save money (especially now). There wouldn't be as big of a priority to save red wolves because there are plenty of gray wolves in the Northern states. Many of these "is it a species or not debates" are petty and meaningless but this affects the wolves directly. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Sat, Sep 12 2009, 9:27pm  True enough, and it IS important. But the animals themselves don't care; whether they are species, hybrids, or intergrades never crosses their minds. They just do whatever they have to do, to survive and procreate. It shouldn't come down to splitting hairs, taxonomically, anyhow. Whether they are a hybrid swam - which will eventually speciate - or a species, they bare here, they are unique, and they should be protected. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: badger man posted Sat, Sep 12 2009, 9:32pm  I agree because as of yet we have not heard from any wolves on the subject. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:43am  LOL I must have been half asleep when I posted this. *Hybrid SWARM, not hybrid swam *They ARE here, not they bare here

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