Cryptozoology forums > Debates > Cryptozoological debates > view thread

Subject: Red Wolves From: badger man posted Tue, Sep 1 2009, 5:56pm  I know this isn't cryptozoological but there hasn't been a new thread in this forum in 6 months so I might as well use it. What does everyone think about the red wolf issue. Some scientists think it is its own species (Canis rufus) but others think it's a coyote/gray wolf hybrid. Still others think red wolves are a subspecies of the gray wolf. The genetic tests seem to support the third theory. The second theory could be because the red wolf became so endangered their mating opportunities were limited and reproduced with coyotes. I am leaning towards the subspecies theory. Read more here Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: mysticete posted Tue, Sep 1 2009, 8:33pm  I think what needs to be done is to examine material from the 1800's (or even earlier), to determine if there was indeed a distinct species of wolf in the Southeast. Anything later than that is probably going to show coyote or dog hybridization, due to human pressures. My gut feeling though is that Red Wolf probably is not a valid species, although other population may be worthy of recognition (i.e. Himalayan and Indian Wolves) The study does suggests that all of our red wolves are at best a hybrid population, but select breeding could probably remove a lot of the coyote genes. Wolf taxonomy is a an emotionally loaded question, and I don't think we will see it resolved soon. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: EastTxSwamp posted Wed, Sep 2 2009, 9:58am  From a completely non-scientific perspective, I've seen the Mexican red wolves being bred at Fossil Rim near Glen Rose (yep, where the dinosaur/human footprint farce comes from). They look very different from other wolves to me, much smaller and, well, a lot more coyote-like. Not to say they're coyotes, but from a purely morphological standpoint, I'd call them a separate species. I know that's not how it works, I'm just saying. Swamp Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: badger man posted Wed, Sep 2 2009, 3:09pm  I think in the article it said they took preserved specimens from the 1930s (still not as far back as you like but still worth the time) and they found out the older and newer wolves are almost identical genetically. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Mon, Sep 7 2009, 6:32pm  Until about 50 years ago the red wolf was known as Canis niger (black wolf), with three more or less generally accepted subspecies. (At present the species is known as Canis rufus, with three subspecies, two of which are exinct.)It's hard to even find photos of black-phase animals now, although they were once common, especially in the extreme southeastern USA. The black phase is thought to be extinct. A black color phase is unknown in coyotes. That is a strong indication that red wolves should be considered a species unto themselves and not a gray wolf/coyote hybrid or subspecies. Red wolves are more similar to Algonquin wolves than either are to coyotes or gray wolves; in fact some authorities believe that the red wolves and Algonquin wolves should be considered conspecific under the name Canis lycaon. There has probably been intergrading between red wolves and coyotes and also, to a lesser extent, between Algonquin wolves and coyotes, ever since people of European descent began persecuting and exterminating wolves, and there may in fact be no truly "purebred" red wolves left; however, that does not mean they are not a separate species. I'm struck by the similarities between red wolves and Ethiopian wolves, as well. Both are more coyote-like in appearance than are gray wolves, and both species are in jeopardy, in part due to hybridization(with domestic dogs in the case of Ethiopian wolves). Canids of the genus Canis are very malleable genetically and hybridization between species whose ranges overlap (or with dogs) is not really uncommon. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: Rangoon posted Thu, Sep 10 2009, 2:41pm  Canids of the genus Canis are very malleable genetically and hybridization between species whose ranges overlap (or with dogs) is not really uncommon. People breed wolf/dogs because they tend to be far more intelligent than domestic dogs. However wolf dogs are only for very skilled owners who fully understand how a pack works. You must be able to be the "Alpha" to your hybrid or they will try to make you subordinate and there will be problems. There are sanctuaries that will take them however there is always plenty of room for people to simply release them into the woods. They also do escape from such sanctuaries. Remember the so called "Maine mutant"? Neither Loren Coleman nor Monster quest mention that there are at least three wolf dog sanctuaries located relatively close to where that road kill was found. It is also difficult to differentiate between wolf/dogs and their lineage by DNA tests. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Thu, Sep 10 2009, 9:27pm  True, Goon, but the Maine Muttant was a chow mix. The former owners later came forward with photos of the dog when it was living that left little doubt as to its identity. Apparently they had moved out of state and left the dog with someone who either abandoned it or just neglected it and let it run loose, and it was hit by a vehicle and killed. The photos that went viral, of the dead dog, were shot from an angle that caused its head to appear very foreshortened and that made it look weird. I have had both wolves and wolf/dogs, and also a coydog. Bob, my coydog, was one of the smartest dogs I have ever known. He was blessed with a good nature, too, although a bit shy and stand-offish with strangers. I did have to watch him carefully around small children. He never hurt one or even tried to, but his mannerisms when around younguns had a definitely predatory aspect. I have known several wolf hybrids, and I had always heard that they are apt to become predatory as they mature. I used to not believe that. But then I raised a litter of them myself (the owner was a real prince of a guy who was going to drown the puppies because his wolf escaped and mated with a dog not of his choice). It was an experience that I will never repeat, but I am glad I did it, because it opened my eyes to the truth about wolf hybrids. Wolfdogs are risky, even if you are their "alpha". They are always looking for chinks in the alpha's armor, and they will take advantage of any opportunity or perceived weakness. And I don't care what anyone says, or how many examples to the contrary that people put forth, I maintain that wolf hybrids are downright dangerous to have around children. The exceptions do not negate the rule. But I digress. There is at least one breed of dog, the Catahoula Leopard Cur, that was supposedly developed in part from red wolves. And there are several pariah-type feral dogs in the US, most notably the Carolina Shell Heap dog, which may or may not be of ancient origin (I doubt they are really very ancient). Not to mention the thousands of feral dogs of more recent vintage, such as those that recently killed the Georgia couple. There were no coyotes in the eastern US until just a few decades ago, but there were wolves, both red wolves and the more familiar gray wolves. Coyotes were actually introduced into the southeast at least a couple of times, by "sportsmen" who kept them in very large multi-acre enclosures and coursed them with hounds. Some of them released the coyotes into the wild after a few others were busted for animal cruelty and illegally transporting wildlife across state lines. Other coyotes have been dispersing eastward during the last century, after the near extermination of red and gray wolves in the east. Coyotes did hybridize with red wolves, especially in the extreme western part of the wolves' range. But the wolves were here long before the coyotes. If I was not so lazy this evening I would scan and upload a photo from a book I have from circa 1970, of a black-phase red wolf. Maybe I will this weekend; today has just been too long. Anyhow, the black phase animal looks much less coyote-like than the "red" (really an agouti color with a rufous base). Also, the few photos of black phase red wolves that I have ever seen, were much more thoroughly black than are black-phase gray wolves, which almost always have some silvery gray markings or shadings. For these and other reasons, I believe that red wolves are a separate species. But the term "species" is a term for human convenience anyway. The animals don't know or care whether they are species, subspecies, or hybrids. They just are. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: badger man posted Sat, Sep 12 2009, 8:48pm  This debate could be very important to the animals. If the red wolf is proved to be a hybrid or subspecies the government could take away its protection to save money (especially now). There wouldn't be as big of a priority to save red wolves because there are plenty of gray wolves in the Northern states. Many of these "is it a species or not debates" are petty and meaningless but this affects the wolves directly. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Sat, Sep 12 2009, 9:27pm  True enough, and it IS important. But the animals themselves don't care; whether they are species, hybrids, or intergrades never crosses their minds. They just do whatever they have to do, to survive and procreate. It shouldn't come down to splitting hairs, taxonomically, anyhow. Whether they are a hybrid swam - which will eventually speciate - or a species, they bare here, they are unique, and they should be protected. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: badger man posted Sat, Sep 12 2009, 9:32pm  I agree because as of yet we have not heard from any wolves on the subject. Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: kittenz posted Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:43am  LOL I must have been half asleep when I posted this. *Hybrid SWARM, not hybrid swam *They ARE here, not they bare here Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: Ella posted Tue, Jun 15 2010, 6:43pm  Well, lots of hybrids can swim, and the wolves do bear their puppies. Nothing to worry about! :D :D Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: T7 posted Sun, Sep 20 2009, 12:22pm  http://www.cosmosmith.com/red_wolves.html Subject: Re: Red Wolves From: Ella posted Tue, Jun 15 2010, 6:40pm  I know very little, but based on what little I know, I lean toward a combination of the first and second theories. Everything I know is from Chester Moore, who, sadly, has left the field of cryptozoology but has become more and more famous as a wildlife conservationist and fishing expert. About 7 years ago, he actually found a few red wolves left in far East Texas, or at least animals reproduced by coyote hybrids that seem to have virtually 100% red wolf genetic components. I was fortunate enough, back in 1998, to see one such animal crossing a pasture on the upper Texas coast just after sun-up. Later I saw the exact same creature in photos on Chester's web site. Chester is on Facebook and if you send him a message from his profile page, he could probably give you further info. He's real good about doing that when he gets the time.

Close Window