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Subject: Re: An open letter From: /PJ posted Sat, Feb 28 2009, 4:01pm  I didn't take them out of context. I stated I hoped it was tongue in cheek. Not ALL believers think that way, and that includes me. If you feel slighted by me re-posting it, I'm going to tell you what I've been told numerous times lately. "Sorry, you posted it, therefore it is open for debate. If you didn't want it discussed, don't post it". What you don't seem to understand is that I agree with you, for the most part. But the question was: Where are the pictures. Some were provided, and yet they were dismissed. Why is that? Did you look at them? They have the same things you claim to have, even a height marker at the same spot with a person standing there for size reference. Even the person posting them admitted they were bad. But pictures they are. Now we should go on to figure out what IN the pictures, shouldn't we? I'm pretty sure there is a way to discuss these things politely and rationally. Entity posted photos as well. My first thought was "now go into the bush and stand 75 feet away and take a picture. Can we tell it's you?" Probably not. His pictures were extremely close. Truthfully, if anyone gets THAT close to a cryptid, they BETTER have a picture with that good of quality! "But thank you for proving my point. To the "believer", any argument that questions their "belief" is often taken out of context as a personal attack, and they sometimes take it upon themselves to respond in kind (see the whole SF Sea Serpent debacle). (And no, I'm not saying that's what you did here)." OK then how did I prove your point if that's NOT what I did? You are condtridicting yourself. Please elaborate. Are you trying to tell me that the paragraph I quoted wasn't PURPOSELY insulting and condescending to believers in general? And what part about people posting things for second opinions and just to get a rise out of people did you not understand? Yes, people do that. Yes sometimes it's hella annoying. I'm agreeing with you. I also agree that sightings and photos should be questioned, but the demeanor of the site seems to be "insult first and don't debate anything unless you have to." I'm speaking very truthfully here Hawk, and again, forgive me if I take things personally, but your comments really insulted me. I can't help but to think I can't be the only one that took offence. A few other comments by other members have as well, but I won't address them unless those people answer this post. My main point is: If after 7 years of being a member here, if I (me personally) do NOT feel comfortable posting any evidence because of the "bad attitudes" here, how would a new person just coming here feel about posting anything? It's more than a little bit daunting. The "why bother" attitude is taking over because of it. And THAT'S where the pictures are. They are in the hands of people that don't wish to be made fun of or insulted. I am asking people, as politely as I can, to tone it down if they want people to debate. If the only reason people are coming here to see is people being insulted back and forth, then we have bigger problems than I originally thought. And for the record, I inadvertantly lied to a friend today by saying I was going to post this letter and leave it be. No I will not. I think this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed, and I will appologize NOW for the oversight. P.S. Yours is a good picture, I won't argue with that. I'm hoping someone, somewhere can post as clear of a clear picture of something we haven't seen yet, or something extremely rare. It would make my day, and I can only assume yours as well. Subject: Re: An open letter From: Wee Mad Arthur posted Sat, Feb 28 2009, 6:09pm  A lot of this has to do with the nature of the evidence, as well as what has been going on here lately. A bad photo is not good evidence. It is too easy to manipulate and we already walk a razor's edge in this field as it is. The attitude shift is a response to all the jokers, idiots, and kids who have been deluging the site with twaddle lately. It has been enough to make me throw up my hands in frustration and kept me from posting. I'm sure it is the cause of a great deal of the snarkiness as well. Subject: Re: An open letter From: Stu posted Sun, Mar 1 2009, 2:41pm  Arthur, I agree with almost all you say, as usual, although I'm not sure that the attitude shift is entirely down to the Animal X-generation eejits, hoaxers & trolls. I think it's swings & roundabouts, & it'll swing again. I've rarely been that frustrated I'd not post, but I've given up replying (honestly) more than once. The thing that irks me with some "sceptics" is this. They're happy to debunk obviously shaky or incorrect evidence (as am I), or shoot holes in inconclusive evidence, but won't, no matter how pressed, be honest enough to admit that they believe ANY of it. Or that they believe SPECIFICALLY in the likelihood of certain unknown animals/cryptids being around. That's sailing close to the winds of hypocrisy, if not downright trolling on some occasions. Subject: Re: An open letter From: Entity posted Sun, Mar 1 2009, 7:25pm  Hehe. My point wasn't what was on the pictures, but the quality of cellphone cameras and why people shouldn't say that they make good enough pictures (and therefor lack of any photo of a cryptid) ;) Just for the record ;) Subject: Re: An open letter From: /PJ posted Mon, Mar 2 2009, 2:48am  Yes, and MY point was are they good enough to take a recognizable picture from 75 feet away? (in the same poor lighting conditions etc...) I don't think they are. Perhaps very good at close range pictures, but not after a certain distance. If someone gets THAT close to a cryptid, either grab it and haul it in, or the picture BETTER be very good! Subject: Re: An open letter From: Entity posted Tue, Mar 3 2009, 1:42pm  My point was to show ben his pictures were crap (those he posted that is). The resolution was crap. But plenty of new(er) phones have cams like mine. I could post other pictures where there is plenty of distance and you still get a clearer image than those ben posted. But I would have to get a new cable for starters and those pics I have on the PC are of friends who might not be too happy if I post pictures of them ;) Point is, there should still be at least 1 or more pictures out there IMHO. Subject: Re: An open letter From: /PJ posted Wed, Mar 4 2009, 3:14am  And when people see that their evidence (admittedbly BAD evidence) is CRAP, why bother posting anything at all? WHO decides what's CRAP and what isn't? Only the person that posseses the pictures and thinks "Well if they think those are bad, no one wants to look at mine either". OR "I can submit these pictures, and ask if anyone can see what I do in them" Which is part of my original post. No one posts any pictures because they aren't good enough, and when they think it IS good enough, it's still deemed "CRAP". My point is: There are plenty of pictures. (The original post was "where are they".) IF you don't think they are good enough, that's fine, your opinion means more to you than other's opinion ever will, correct? Subject: Re: An open letter From: Entity posted Wed, Mar 4 2009, 3:27am  1. Post all the evidence you/he/she/it wishes. By all means. The more the better! You seem to misunderstand me a bit. Give us all you have! 2. BUT! Showing a pixelated something from a cellphone cam that could be anything to prove that cellphones aren't good enough is not good enough. Show the picture, but do not use it as an excuse that cellphone cameras, or cheap cameras that are widespread will give NO good images what so ever. 3. I'm drinking tee here LOL... But to the point (and no hard feelings here please to all of ye): I just find it odd (this last part refers to the other two in a sense) that some people can make great pictures with cheap cams of wildlife + people are curious and many would go back and still nothing acceptable of a BF which so many people have said to have seen. Sometimes the oddity is what captures my thoughts first. What is, in the end, good enough, BTW? A pixelated and blurry photo of something OR a picture where you can start to make out something? There is a little difference there, not? Cheers PAtty! Subject: Re: An open letter From: /PJ posted Wed, Mar 4 2009, 4:41am  When the "Current Affair Norway House" tape was released everyone was disappointed. Myself included. It was hyped as a "film of bigfoot". People demanded to see it! But, all you can see is a pixelated and blurry something walking just in front of the trees on a sandbar. Most people dismissed it as another hoax and left it. Why is that? Because the person filming was across a river and zooming in to 300X pixelated the video so badly no-one could tell what it was. It looked OK to him on his camcorder, but it looks terrible when veiwed on a TV screen or computer monitor. If he han't have zoomed in, all you would be able to see is a dark shape, which is just as bad. Rumour says the original tape is "lost" but I don't believe it. Bottom line is: You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If he zooms in, the picture is blurry. If he didn't, you can't tell what's there anyway. The camera doesn't record what the eye sees. How many photos have been taken when someone thinks "WOW this is great!" and you watch it or look at developed photos and wonder where the "great" went? I know it's happened to me a few times. Below is a picture of my buddy the blue jay that visits me every year. It's taken with a Kodak Easyshare C530. 5 Megapixels. The picture is taken from about 25 feet away, but zoomed in to make the image larger. Great camera, bad picture. Now imagine it was a rabbit or squirrel or fawn and the colors closer to the color of the tree. What would be seen? Subject: Re: An open letter From: Entity posted Wed, Mar 4 2009, 4:17pm  I get your point, but try to understand mine too, OK? And they lost the original video? Yea right, and I ca walk on water. LOL Subject: Re: An open letter From: LadyGreenEyes posted Wed, May 27 2009, 2:10pm  They aren't that good. I have a fairly decent (for a cell phone) cam, and it takes horrible pictures in poor lighting. There isn't any image stabilization, either. Close range in good light, I can get great shots, but at a distance, with questionable lighting and movement? No way. Even the cheaper digital cams can't always handle movement that well. I want a great picture, too, something that is clear and sharp and well-light, and has points of reference for size, but most people, even now, don't carry the equipment around for that. Even owning it isn't a guarantee that it's with you at the needed time. For example, I have a video camera with a lovely "nightshot" feature, that allows some great footage in the near-dark, but I never seem to take it with me when I would have loved later on to have done so. Recently, I missed footage of a fox we spotted on post, and several deer, and a raccoon (all in one night), and before I missed a huge owl, close and hooting at me. All known animals, though sighting the fox is a rare sight. Yet not one moment on film. It's frustrating, and I am sure the people sighting these things wish they had the right equipment at the right time, but most don't. With some sightings, hauling it in would be a good plan, but not sure about others. Subject: Re: An open letter From: LadyGreenEyes posted Wed, May 27 2009, 2:03pm  I don't think you should leave it alone. You are correct, and this has been happening for a LONG time now. That's THE reason I haven't been in here much lately. I simply got tired of all the nasty behavior, and seeing nothing really interesting because people don't want to be attacked by the usual crowd in here. This used to be a good site, with interesting discussions, great reports, and cool pictures. I could put up with and ignore the occasional childish post, looking for attention, because of the general quality. That quality is gone, and I have mentioned this before. I have NO issues with discussing, in a rational and courteous manner, photos and sightings, and in fact want to see that happen. I have pointed out problems with even some of the sillier posts, in as nice a manner as possible, just in case the person was really serious. If they weren't, well, at least they could see that we are not all fools in here. Usually, though, it's all a popularity contest, and a big insult war, and it's gotten old fast. There are some great people in this site, with a lot of varied experience and knowledge, and it's sick to see that made useless by the bickering. I think we have bigger problems than you thought, personally, and if you think back, you will know why I say that. You saw a lot of it. And no, you weren't part of the problem; even when we disagree, I know you have always tried to be as respectful as possible. Subject: Re: An open letter From: Raynman posted Mon, Jun 1 2009, 8:58pm  PJ, why is this turned to the "debunkers" as being the bad guys? It has been my scientific experience that good empirical data will not only hold up under methodical scrutiny, but that it is repeatable. While I understand the appeal and calling of fantasy, folklore and legend, they are usually based at least in part upon fact but are also usually a result of embellishment, whether or not intentional. I would truly be amazed to see a true bigfoot, an unknow hominid, a simian hybrid or new species walk out of the woods or be discovered. It would be such a scientific experience to determine how it fit within the zoological record, but sadly, that is not going to be the case. Cryptids and animals previously believed extinct will continually appear, but they are supported with irrefutable scientific evidence. If there is such a critter, why is there no irrefutable evidence? Why are all of them obscure, indeterminate, inconclusive? Why, with all of the supposed repetitive encounters with humans, has no conclusive physical evidence been gathered? Why has not one of these people taken a clear, close shot? I can even get a good picture of a friend standing in front of me with a cell phone camera. In a shot like that, they are clearly recognizable. I could show it to anyone who knew that person and 100% of those people would identify the person. Why is there no fossil record? We have compiled an amazing array of species and evolutionary processes from the fossil record we have discovered, yet not one points to bigfoot. (Gigantopithicus does not count, the carbon date is too old) Especially with the increase attention in the last twenty years, the hordes of folks out in the wild looking, camera traps, encroaching development, even aerial expeditions, why do we not have one bit of confirmable evidence? Not one clear photo. Not one bit of conclusive evidence, not one captured specimen, not one verifiable fossil? It is because all of the bigfoot sightings have an explanation based in fact, which is not bigfoot but some other plausible, reasonable explanation. This does not mean the people that think they have seen one are crazy or hoaxers or manipulative or deliberately deceitful, it just means their perception was incorrect. Perception is a process of human thought and processing of input data and fallible. That is why eyewitnesses are unreliable in court. I agree the tone of this site is terrible at times. Teens will be teens, people will be vindictive and mean and a lot of folk that live online don't have the best social skills. However, I don't frequent this site because of bigfoot, rather for the other cryptids. Some extremely insightful input, posting and discussion occurs on this site, but I have pretty much stopped posting over the last year or so because of the tone of many of the discussions. All that said, we all have our place on this site. While you may not like the "debunkers" arguments as they attack your beliefs, facts are facts. I will be the first to publicly eat unsalted crow and applaud the long-time believers if a true bigfoot is discovered and scientifically supported and presented. Until then, I continue my stance, "show me the evidence".

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