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Subject: Nahual?? From: shark man posted Sat, May 7 2005, 6:59pm  A while back i was watching MTV2 and this show came on called Fear, in which contestants had to live in haunted places and do dares to win money. There was an episode that took place in this abandoned gold mine in Mexico that is suposedly inhabited by this creature called a Nahual, who according to Aztec Folklore is an evil sorcerer (sp??) that can turn into an evil beast. And when the mine was there tons of workers mysteriously died and were mutilated, and after it closed down, locale villagers were frequently attacked in thier sleep and livestock was mutilated, missing certin organs and all its BLOOD! As i was watching the show and they were talking about all the werid stuff it reminded me of a chupacabra, because it takes the form of a wolf like animal that stands on two legs. I was trying to find some more info on it and a lot of the websites i found on google were in spanish, if anybosdy has anymore info on this thing, post up. Also, look it up and tell me what you think of it. Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: Saau_Hatshepsut posted Sat, May 7 2005, 7:22pm  Hi Shark Man, I don't know anything about the Fear show or the location they highlighted, but I have learnt a little about Mesoamerican beliefs. As I understand it, the Nahual is a companion spirit that usually takes the form of an animal specific to that particular person. Even the gods were said to have nahuals, and as an example, I think Tezcatlipoca's was a jaguar (a popular one, obviously). So it's not that a nahaul is a sorcerer that shape-shifts, it's that it's already an animal with a connection to a person/sorcerer/god/whatever. Hope that helps explain that part of it, at least until someone with a little more Mesoamerican knowledge than me comes along. :) I would be interested if you find any further information about the supposed mutilations, however. Cheers, Saau Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: tenor_face posted Sat, May 7 2005, 8:02pm  You're pretty much right on the money Saau_Hatshepsut, except it sometimes does refer to the sorceror himself, not just the companion spirit. It depends on who you talk to. Also, the correct spelling is nagual. It looks like Carlos Castaneda did teach me something after all. Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: Mr. Myotis posted Sat, May 7 2005, 10:11pm  Read something about those in a book on chupacapras, though I don't consider it to be the most trustworthy of references. Said to be some sort of shapeshifter, if I remeber right, and described as a cross between a Mule deer and a rabbit. I think "nagual" is a general term for some evil spirit or magican, however. Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: herm posted Sat, May 7 2005, 11:02pm  "Nagual" refers to the unknowable aspect of a given entity. It has a similarity to the Chineese concept of "Tao" in that regard. The unknowable is often ascribed the ability to assume forms of various animals. ~h makin' stuff up, has no idea really Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: Vila posted Sun, May 8 2005, 4:46am  "A nahual, also called nagual, is a spirit being or animistic entity closely associated with a human being. Among some groups, each person has his or her own nahual which acts a double, a shadow, or as a protective spirit. They are often animals such as dogs, jaguars, or opossums, but they can also be natural forces such as lightning or meteors. If one harms another person's nahual, one may harm the person who belongs to that nahual. During sleep, the nahual can go wondering, something that can be seen in the dream. Nahuals can also be sent out to perform tasks, use it as an adviser, or a person can change his shape to that of the nahual. The origin of the nahuals lies far back in pre-Hispanic times. Many patron deities of towns have their own nahuals to help them guard their towns, just like their pre-Hispanic forebears. These nahuallies make nocturnal patrols, giving off evil airs to ward off rival nahuallies. In ancient times, each day sign of the divinatory calender had its own personal nahual or deity, which corresponds to the present-day beliefs that each sign of the zodiac has its own nahual. Among the Quiché Maya (K'iche') the day a child is born determines its nahual, but the child is only told when it has reached a responsible age so that they may not blame bad deeds on the nahual." So says Pantheon.Org Vw Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: (profile name not found) posted Sun, May 8 2005, 7:32am  True, a nahual can go wandering around while its person is sleeping. But, fortunately, they never seem to wander over to your fridge and help themselves to any of your beer. At least mine don't. Knows better, methinks (grin). McCall Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: shark man posted Sun, May 8 2005, 1:16pm  Ok, i looked it up a bit more and found a site from the show, with this info: Welcome to Mina Dos Estrellas (Mee-nah Dose Eh-stray-us), an abandoned gold mining complex tucked into the mountains near the small farming village of Tlalpujahua (Tuh-LAL-poo-HA-wah), Mexico. At its peak, this mine employed over 5,000 workers and was one of the largest producers of gold in Mexico. In 1903, European settlers invaded Tlalpujahua (Tuh-LAL-poo-HA-wah). When the settlers learned the surrounding mountains held a fortune in gold, local villagers warned against any excavation plans. They believed that the mountain's gold was guarded by a Nahaul (Nuh-wall), an ancient Mexican sorcerer controlled by El Diablo, the devil. The Nahaul is one of the most feared creatures in all of Mexican folklore. The meaning of Nahaul comes from a combination of ancient Aztec words: "Naualli" (Nuh-waa-LEE), which referred to the sorcerers, or holders of the dark powers, and the word, "Nagual" (Nah-GWALL), which meant the animal companion, or one who walks upright next to man. An early Aztec writing about the Nahaul has been translated as follows: All at once, the trees begin to rustle and the wind began to moan. And then out of the darkness came a terrible phantom--the Nahaul. He stood seven or eight feet tall, and stood as though he were a man. But it was an animal covered in hair, with long arms, and the feet and claws of a wolf. It had wolf's ears and a wolf's mouth, but the expression of an evil man. It made an extraordinary noise--a howl that pierced with hellish glee. It was there for only a moment, and then disappeared. It was approaching sunrise. I knew I would see it again when the sun set. The villagers believed the Nahaul had the ability to change from human form to beasts such as wolves, snakes, pumas and wild dogs. The settlers paid no attention to the locals' superstitions and constructed a huge mining mill, digging 10 miles of tunnels into the mountains and pillaging the gold they were warned not to touch. Prosperity came at a price. Conditions at the mine were atrocious, employees were overworked and exploited, and fatalities were frequent. During the mine's operation, many unexplainable accidents, deaths and suicides occurred throughout the Mina Dos Estrellas complex. Men broke through rock and plummeted hundreds of feet to their death, never to be found. Others hit pockets of dead air, causing them to suffocate instantly. Men lost limbs on the giant machinery of the complex. Many died from the smallest of injuries since the owners refused to provide proper medical treatment for them. It was often said that the chances of surviving an injury were better if one avoided the hospital. As the accidents increased at the mine, local authorities searched for rational explanations. The workers had their own ideas: They blamed many of the accidents on the beastly Nahaul. In 1937, unseasonable torrential rains provoked a flood that washed through the gold mine tunnels, killing over 400 workers. The flood brought production to a permanent halt at the Mina Dos Estrellas. The owners said the flood was an act of nature, but the villagers and surviving workers once again blamed the Nahaul. They refused to return to the property for fear of what lurked in its buildings. A few years after the flood, the villagers of Tlalpujahua became plagued with horrific and gruesome deaths. Many were attacked while they slept. Livestock grazing in the area were found mutilated, and children were reported missing. People believed that the Nahaul continued to stalk the mine and surrounding area. Parents told their children horrible bedtime tales of the shape-shifting beast, and people guarded their homes with barbed wire and high fences. Every precaution was taken, yet the deaths continued. Desperate, the villagers turned to a local curandero, a folk magic practitioner. He performed an ancient tribal ritual to draw the Nahaul into the mine tunnels. He then instructed the villagers to seal the Nahaul in the gold mine with large boulders and warned against ever re-opening it. Recently, villagers of Tlalpujahua have reported seeing beasts wandering the abandoned gold mine. Within the last few months, farmers with land bordering the Mina Dos Estrellas have reported unexplainable animal mutilations. Chants and horrible cries echo through the area. Rumors that the Nahaul has returned to use the Mina Dos Estrellas as its home have kept the villagers of Tlalpujahua away from the gold mine. They claim this complex is haunted by dead workers and remains home to the Nahaul. Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: shark man posted Wed, May 11 2005, 5:00pm  BUMP BUMP BUMP!! Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: jan1981 posted Wed, Dec 12 2007, 2:24pm  Tlalpujahua (Tlalpuxagua), a town located in the northeast part of what is today Michoacán, Mexico, and its environs. Tlalpuxagua was a jurisdiction within Spain's northernmost viceroyalty of New Spain the Indies. After silver mines were discovered in the vicinity in 1558, Tlalpujahua became a secondary mining center, and as a result the municipality gained its first alcalde mayor of the newly-established Real de Minas de Tlalpuxagua. This was the only thing I came across while trying to do research on Mina Dos Estrellas, and weirdly enough the records for this place only dates from 1562-1903 (the year that the catastrophe mentioned in MTV's Fear) and nothing else is mentioned about the mines or the colony. Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: CascadeCamaro posted Sun, May 8 2005, 2:57pm  I believe Fear is hosted by Kriss Stephans, one of the administrators of Paranormal.com. Subject: Re: Nahual?? From: DJKnightmare posted Mon, May 16 2005, 11:18pm  I used to watch Fear on MTV. That was the only stunt that Nobody stayed for. They were supposed to stay for a few days, but noone made it through the first night if my memory serves me correctly. They stopped the show after that one. Makes you wonder why doesn't it?

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